Tuesday, July 20, 2010

Don't worry... be happy

The difference between an Atheist and a Christian could be summed up in 6 words spoken by Christ. Jesus began His public ministry as He preached the "Sermon on the Mount". The sermon starts out with the Beatitudes. (Matthew 5) The Beatitudes start out with Jesus saying this "Blessed are the poor in spirit".

Definition for "poor in spirit" = Those who realize they need the Lord.
Definition for "blessed" = happy.

So now our quote by Jesus could say this "happy are those who realize they need me".

Does this mean the Atheist can't be happy? Of course not, but an Atheists happiness depends on circumstances. A Christian should follow Christ's lead. Was Jesus happy?

Someone once asked Billy Graham that question, here was his reply "If by happiness we mean serenity, confidence, contentment, peace, joy and soul satisfaction then Jesus was supremely happy.

When we realize God is control our priorities will change and then our happiness wont be dependent on circumstances or things.

Later, feeno

44 comments:

  1. "...an Atheists happiness depends on circumstances."

    feen, on what do you base this claim?

    I'm not necessarily intimating that you are completely incorrect, for happiness comes and goes for me, as I KNOW it does with Christians. Sometimes, for no apparent reason (exterior or interior) I do not feel happy or content.

    One thing I do remember, when I was a Christian, when something went "wrong" (car broke down, child got sick, all of which happened often when you have three kids and couldn't afford newer cars) I was not only unhappy that it happened, but I would wonder why God would allow more bad things to happen in my life.

    Now, as an atheist, when I have car trouble (I still can't afford newer cars) I may get a tad discouraged, but I no longer wonder "Why God, WHY?

    So, I think your claim - "...an Atheists happiness depends on circumstances." - is not entirely true, and a Christians happiness can be affected just as easily by their circumstances.

    What I think (and this is only what I think), because the bible says - "Blessed are the poor in spirit" - and because you interpret that to mean - ""poor in spirit" = Those who realize they need the Lord. Definition for "blessed" = happy..." - and because you therefor believe that Christians should be happier than non Christians, you make the claim that the happiness of non Christians is entirely dictated by their environment.

    In other words, the bible says "this", so "this" must be true.

    I have no problem admitting that Christians may, in response to surveys, claim to be "happy" more than atheists do, buy a slight margin. But I will also admit that people who have a social life (those who get together with family, friends, clubs, etc) are happier than those who have more limited social contact.

    So, the reasonable conclusion would seem that people who go to church (Christians) have regular contact with like-minded people more often than people who don't go to church (atheists), and therefor, Christians may "feel happier" more often than atheists.

    Makes perfect sense to me.

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  2. So why does every Christian I have heard of talk about their struggle with sin?

    I think this idea is based on a Bible passage, not observed reality.

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  3. Agreed with Ginx.... Almost every Christian I have ever encountered is constantly talking about their sin and such. Many of them complain all of the time, and they all have a story. Some members of my family go to church together. One, a vicious alcoholic, second a reformed alcoholic who at the height of her disease process lost her children, and the third, someone who cheated on her husband and left her family. Those were not happy people.

    I have worked with many people with addictions who embrace religion. Many of them feel secure in being "powerless", and not having to really think for themselves anymore. Addiction counseling is changing because all of the religious groups never empirically tested their methods when they implemented them. They are no longer considered credible. So, this grass roots, peer based AA stuff will go away soon.

    Hate to say it Feeno... For the most part, the happiest people that I know are atheists. Happiness is not dependent on circumstances, God does not make one more happy than anyone else.

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  4. I agree with Tink; a lot of recovering alcoholics seem to be excessively religious. They just replaced one addiction with another. Just look at Glenn Beck. What a mess.

    The bottom line is, it's not the Lord who is keeping these people sober, it's their own will power. They just don't know it.

    What do I know anyway, right? I have no addictions whatsoever. Caffeine doesn't even have an effect on me. I like good beer, but I'm in no way addicted to it. I guess I don't know jack about addiction. So maybe I'll shut up and go feed my sick cat.

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  5. 'Sup ya'll

    I agree with all 3 of you guys. I wrote that poorly. I should have just left the "Blessed" or "happy" part out.

    I was just trying to say that the difference is as simple as one group realizing they need God, while the other group doesn't.

    I will say for the most part happiness is based upon circumstances whether your Atheist or Christian. But we should try to emulate Christ. The Apostle Paul said "...I have learned to be satisfied with what I have. I know what it is to be in need and what it is to have more than enough. I have learned this secret, so that anywhere at any time, I am content, whether I'm full or hungry, whether I have to much or to little. I have the strength to face all conditions by the power that Christ gives me".

    bobaloo, I drive a 2000 GMC 4x4 with 220,000 miles. I feel ya.

    Geenks, Please drop the Bret Alan, it's just weird.

    Tink, You said "Happiness is not dependent on circumstances". There are some people out there like that, and I'm impressed by them. And for me personally I can say that I was always pretty happy, I had a good life, family, friends etc, but when I submitted my life to Christ different things made me happy. What used to make me happy mostly was pursuing things that satisfied my self. Now what makes me the happiest are spiritual things and other peoples happiness. That's not say I still don't enjoy a big ole Mexican dinner washed back with an ice cold PBR, then put my feet up and watch a game.

    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy, feeno

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  6. Hello Lordship

    You snuck in a comment before I did. Good beer to you is IPA, good beer for me is Bud light. I say PBR but really only drink that for nostalgia's sake. When me and my dude Gonz get together we might drink that crap because it's what we drank "back in the day".

    But as far as the alcoholics go.... That's debatable. I've struggled with things in my life that I believe prayer, meditation and Bible reading has helped me with. I could take the credit, but ultimately God sovereign and is in complete control. I'd rather do it with Him, than with out. It goes back to my "Post", some realize they need God, some don't.

    That is not a put down, just an observation.

    Later, feeno

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  7. Feen..."Definition for "poor in spirit" = Those who realize they need the Lord.
    Definition for "blessed" = happy."

    Those West Bro Baptist folk sure seem to realize they feel they need the lord.

    And they have been blessed with him ...But i dont see it honestly make them so happy.Or makes for much happiness for those surrounding them who need to come into any contact

    Infact i see plenty of faithful folk who seem to realize they feel they need the lord.

    But i aint seen it bring much honest happiness,not when the matters calculated overall.

    Sure many of these folks might think they is happy.They might convince "themselves" maybe they is.

    But all around them lays miles and miles of ghostly shipwrecks and hauntings and pain.

    Feen..."If by happiness we mean serenity, confidence, contentment, peace, joy and soul satisfaction then Jesus was supremely happy"

    Oh yeah sure ..."Serenity" is about all the need of fighting over faith beliefs."Contentment" is about what fired the idiotic need for it ..."Peace" is why it split parents from children like a sword."joy" was all the tears and death that it brought ..."soul satisfaction" was why family of all those who followed jim jones etc and died from suicide ,still likely feel much pain and sadness even today.

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  8. Feen..."When we realize God is control our priorities will change and then our happiness wont be dependent on circumstances or things."

    Thats the trouble Feen .My opinion is it obvious faith and devotion allows the follower to convince him/herself of almost anything that suits the indoctrination.

    Kim Jung-il convince himself he`s happy,his people are happy

    It dont need to match the actual facts that are honestly observed.The devotion make the follower look past the facts observed,to only see what happen to suit the indoctrinated idea he choose to follow.

    Gods dont exist ...Which is why we blatantly see Gods aint ever been in control of anything.

    Unless you really believe Gods priorities included folks suicide in Jim Jones cult.Or abuse in West Bro Baptist ...And so much more idiotic matters where Gods are ALWAYS non existant. And in all HONESTY its really man dreaming about gods ,thats ALWAYS doing ALL the string pulling.

    You can dream on all you like! about your delusion of thinking Gods managing matters .Pray your little wee heart out on your knee`s ,and wear a hole clean through the carpet.You wont change bugger all! .....Change little more than ALL those faithful folk before you did!

    It wont change a thing .These abusive cults and nasty aspects of remenants of God faith will still continue to scuge society like the scummy nasty cancerous growth its always been.

    Why?

    Ill tell you why Feen ...Its because Gods dont exist ...Gods control nothing

    Men do .

    And while people like you wont face it.While the "faith gamblers" continue to try winning the big prize of eternal salvation FOR THEMSELVES .

    Many other folks on "this earth" will continue on needing to be the ones "paying harshly!" IN "THIS LIFE", for the dreams! of others whos "faith" make them only ever really considder themselves.

    Sure ,most all of them mean well.I know that.I understand that.Thats what allows me, to try to forgive them for the sad situation.

    Maybe Kim Jung-il mean well ...Maybe Hitler meant well ....Maybe even Stalin really meant well too.

    And i know for sure my own cult family ,really do mean well

    But their devotion cloud their minds and their judgment.

    The devotion on the charasmatic ideas ,make parts of their brain simply shut down.They become so sure they already got it all figured out.

    Parts of the brain supposed to be dealing with scepticism and making decisions.No longer "even bother" working!

    Even people that go through car aciddents where these same areas of the brain get damaged ...Can still exist and seem very normal.

    Yet they still lack this same ability, to use scepticism, and have great trouble with making the proper realistic right decisions.

    They too make what ever idea they wish ...seem to fit, as suits them.Its why people around them cant leave them to make their own decisions.Its just to dangerous

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  9. Feen..."Don't worry... be happy "

    My cult family think exactly this way too, Feen.

    West Bro Baptist too.

    Those in Jim Jones cult did.

    Pope did ,even when sexual abusive priests needed to be stopped.

    Talibanist do.

    Kim Jung-il too.

    Abusive faith parents, psychologically abusing their kids with old ideas of some unproven hell ..do

    Why do you say "dont worry be happy" is all that matter?

    Why do you think it might be so many other people like even old Kim Jung-il and West Bro Baptist and even my own cult family might think this very same way to ?.

    Dont worry ...be happy.

    My family stay thinking -> "dont worry be happy"

    Even though they cause a number of other folk to suicide, and many parents to be split forever from their own children.And some people finally died in extreme sadness after being seperated 40-50 years from their loved ones,having never ever got to even see them again.

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  10. Yes, I do see many people with addictions taking on the Lord.

    Religious addiction may serve the same functions as other addictions, such as allowing the addict to flee from painful realities and emotions through rigid faith routines within inflexible social environments (Linn, Linn, & Linn, 1994; Vanderheyden, 1999). Arterburn and Felton (1991) propose that pent up tension and anxiety are relieved in these individuals by extensive ritualistic behavior, which can be considered a form of getting "high."

    Here is the article that I got this from.
    http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/32584813/Substitute-Addiction-A-Concern-for-Researchers-and-Practitioners

    There is no doubt about that, I would wholeheartedly agree. And, I also feel that folks like this do well in institutions like the military, etc. There clearly is a link. And, I have always believed that happiness is good moments. Enjoy them while you can.

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  11. Gandalonia

    There's about 250 million people living in the USA that claim to be Christian, 14 of them belong to "West Bro Baptist".

    I'm not saying being a Christian guarantees your happiness. I will say that those who realize they need God are indeed blessed.

    People who are harmful of others can call themselves whatever they want. If they call themselves Christian, so be it. But that doesn't mean Christ would approve of this behavior. Not everyone who calls themselves Christians are. God will sort that out when He returns.

    I'm glad you realized Kim Jung-Il is a monster. But he's an atheist, does that mean atheism leads to destruction of families etc.?

    There are many gods, but they are man made. There is but one living God and I choose to serve Him.

    Be right back...

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  12. Big G

    Why do you think I'm trying to "win" the big prize of eternal salvation? I've already won. And I'm not trying to get brownie points either.

    And for every person who has been mistreated by religion, hundreds of others have had their lives enhanced by countless charitable acts all done in the name of their religion.

    You say "Yet they still lack this same ability to use skepticism and have great trouble with making the proper realistic right decisions".

    Do you know that's how Believers feel about people who deny the existence of God?

    Would child molesting be a virtue in the Bible or a sin? And if you think it's wrong, who told you?

    People who disown their family members because they either got religion or left religion just don't get it. And G-man, believe me, I know people who have been deserted by their families as well for accepting Christ.

    Sure the fact that Christ came makes people have to choose. But having to choose Christ doesn't mean we are to reject all else. In fact Jesus tells us "Sure you ain't suppose to kill anyone, but if you are gonna follow me, you better not even hate anybody".

    You heard it said, love your neighbors, Jesus says big deal, I expect you to love your enemies.

    .....?

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  13. Gandy, religion may be useless, I don't know? But I don't see how living a life that emulates Christs can be a bad thing. We want revenge... Jesus turns the other cheek. We want whats best for us, Jesus wants what best for us too. He came to this world not to be served, but to serve. He came, He died and He rose again. And just because some of us believe this and some don't doesn't mean religion should force the hand of anyone. People who do that aren't giving God enough credit. I wont ever split, divide, be spiteful, or ugly to anybody over religious things. We should all be able to gather the facts and decide for ourselves.

    Thanks for the comments, if I missed anything let me know?

    Later Holmes, feeno

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  14. feeno - "Would child molesting be a virtue in the Bible or a sin? And if you think it's wrong, who told you?"

    feen, would stoning a disobedient son to death be a virtue or a sin?
    Would stoning a man to death who worked on the sabbath be a virtue or a sin?

    And if you think it's a virtue, who told you?

    Do Christians ever wonder, for instance: Does God (the bible) say killing is wrong because it is wrong, or is killing wrong because God (the bible) says it's wrong?

    Feen, can you answer your own question - "Would child molesting be a virtue in the Bible or a sin? And if you think it's wrong, who told you?"

    If anything, in the OT, God's followers were commanded to molest (and kidnap, and kill) children.

    So, is child molesting a virtue or sin? Why?

    Would you torture a puppy? If not, why?

    If the bible said torturing a puppy was a virtue, would you?

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  15. Feen said.."People who are harmful of others can call themselves whatever they want. If they call themselves Christian, so be it. But that doesn't mean Christ would approve of this behavior. Not everyone who calls themselves Christians are. God will sort that out when He returns."

    Thats like saying some group can claim right to being "the" real Christian.This is where it goes around and around ...Whether there only be 14 West Bro Baptist or not ,they claim being "the" real Christians also.

    Just because your flavour of Christianity think its "the" real Christians.Dont do a whole lot to change the problem Feen.

    And there might only be 14 West Bro Baptist.I cant be bothered gathering up all the other many flavours of Christianity.

    Feen said.."I'm glad you realized Kim Jung-Il is a monster. But he's an atheist, does that mean atheism leads to destruction of families etc.?"

    Feen Kim Jung-ils problem is he has created another type of cult ,its group think just like Christianity or Islam or hindu ,North Korea's cult .Trying elevate....Tyranny and use of fear ,not a whole lot unlike religion.

    Whether you realize it or not, the fact he dont believe in Gods is merely a side issue.He is following idea of tyranny and use of fear tatic .Thats lots like religion, the be with us or against us attitude ...Step out of line and you`ll end up in hell ...fear tatic.

    Please explain how you connect these ideas of Kim Jung-il, with atheist ideas, when atheist ideas only ever suggest...there seems no evidence of Gods or Hell or reason why we human have need to join any special group.

    Atheist dont suggest if you dont join and become devoted to their particular group,you`ll end up in some hell....Atheist dont suggest you need to devote yourself to their group ....or else! ...like Kim Jung-il ...also does

    Kim Jung-il and Christianity and Islam have far more in common ....Than mere atheism itself ever do

    I dont expect you to accept it.Why would you,its kinda really embarrasing, huh.

    But simply not accepting it dont make it untrue.

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  16. Feen said.."Why do you think I'm trying to "win" the big prize of eternal salvation? I've already won. And I'm not trying to get brownie points either."

    Oh i know you not after brownie points.My cult family dont care about brownie points either.To be worried about brownie points is to worry what other people think.

    My cult family couldnt care less what other people think.Their salvation is all that matter!.

    They couldnt even care less what your flavour of christianity think about it either,Feen.But hey they is religious,whether they be West Bro Baptist or Catholic they all dont really care what other folks think.

    That is unless they get a little worried some people are getting a bit sick of that type of attitude.

    "And for every person who has been mistreated by religion, hundreds of others have had their lives enhanced by countless charitable acts all done in the name of their religion."

    What do that prove.What if i said for every racist that harmed somebody others have been helped by racists too ...You gonna say ..oh sweet one bro !?. Lets get behind racism ! ya ya

    Why not help folks without need of racism?.We know we dont need racism to be helpful humans ....And we know we dont need religion to be helpful human either Feen.

    This oh but religion helped many blah blah ...is getting like playing an old tune on a violin.You think you really gonna fool me that we need religion for people to help each other?.Come on .My name Willy!, not Silly

    "You say "Yet they still lack this same ability to use skepticism and have great trouble with making the proper realistic right decisions".

    Do you know that's how Believers feel about people who deny the existence of God? "

    Feeno atheist dont try and make what ever suits to fit .Atheist use plenty of scepticism because we always look for evidence of Gods ,every single atheist on your blog here is quite prepared! for Feen to show evidence for Gods ....Any decent evidence will do...And we will be converting.

    But there is none available.You cant provide any,we cant find any.Thats scepticism and belief by evidence.

    Its not the same with faith.You dont want us to use scepticism ....you want us to use group think ...follow the leader ...crawl after some gurus ideas ...and all nod our heads ..and say hellelujah...i feel God ..he is with me

    Thats got bugger all to do with scepticism

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  17. Feen.."Would child molesting be a virtue in the Bible or a sin? And if you think it's wrong, who told you?"

    You really honestly think i need a bible to tell me its wrong Feen?.You think about it for a moment.Think about what effect that action gonna have on the child...Ask yourself if you really think you gonna need some faith book.

    What you trying to say is that without God,humans would have no feelings ...And thats utter bullshite! ...Hell man even dogs have feelings ...even horses and sheep ...They dont need your god or your faith gurus Feen

    Feen .."People who disown their family members because they either got religion or left religion just don't get it. And G-man, believe me, I know people who have been deserted by their families as well for accepting Christ.

    Sure the fact that Christ came makes people have to choose. But having to choose Christ doesn't mean we are to reject all else. In fact Jesus tells us "Sure you ain't suppose to kill anyone, but if you are gonna follow me, you better not even hate anybody".

    You heard it said, love your neighbors, Jesus says big deal, I expect you to love your enemies.

    .....? "

    Oh yeah but like you admit choosing to feel need to become christian ...automatically make it seem like you some lessor person without being christian.

    Why you dont think that would seem kinda abusive and upperty? ...Why you not understand how it might make somebody feel? ...What was wrong with just being human and family?

    You can roll out all the Jesus said love your neighbour and love your enemys blah blah blah ....And thats a real great way these faiths use to cover up the bigoted ideas they just got the follower to swallow hook line and sinker.

    But i aint swallowing Feen ...I aint devoted...Im not following any charisma ! ....My brains still using scepticism its not shut down

    And you cant dress up a banana and try telling me it honestly looks like a orange ...and simply expect me to believe you.

    I dont care if the bible ALSO contain some smooth talkin scripture ...that DONT take away from all other the bigotry and nasty attitude that it still contain too ..That obviously exist! because its split and devided people for thousands of years now.You think one line from the bible telling folk to love their neighbour, gonna be enough to blind me to all the rest also written?.

    See you picking and choosing from the bible what you see as good ...And thats cool and its real great maybe nobody in "your" church group is abusers.

    But it dont change! the fact others dont pick and choose quite the same way you do! ...Others pick deviding like a sword and splitting father from son and mother from daughter !.Others hate Gay folk ,others feel women should be opressed.

    You cant try and tell me all the pain and suffering exists around faith ...simply because some folks choose to make a nasty translation

    The pain and suffering and division exists around faith for a very good reason Feen .There is stuff written in their thats abusive ...There is stuff written in their that suggests division and bigotry.There is plenty of stuff written in there that is pretty nasty.

    Whether folks get it wrong ...is beside the point.

    It dont change the fact they get it wrong ...does it

    I suggest you try making a mushroom look like its a pretty rosebud .

    You tell me somebody felt need to join christianity,and their unchristian family felt kinda pissed.

    What do you expect?.Why you gotta be something else than mere human ? ..aint family good enough anymore simply being family?.

    Its nothing new.Its always caused these problems ..Always will do

    Why?.

    Because the base idea is kinda bigoted.Its group mentality ...Elevation of one type of group of humans above others.

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  18. feeno said...
    Gandy, religion may be useless, I don't know? But I don't see how living a life that emulates Christs can be a bad thing. We want revenge... Jesus turns the other cheek. We want whats best for us, Jesus wants what best for us too. He came to this world not to be served, but to serve. He came, He died and He rose again. And just because some of us believe this and some don't doesn't mean religion should force the hand of anyone. People who do that aren't giving God enough credit. I wont ever split, divide, be spiteful, or ugly to anybody over religious things. We should all be able to gather the facts and decide for ourselves.

    Thanks for the comments, if I missed anything let me know?

    Later Holmes, feeno "

    Feeno i commend you for your kindness.I totally like your personality.My beef is not with your personality or even your particular flavour of "watered down" Christianity .

    Please understand my beef lays with faith.This needs to be kept seperate from my personal relationship with you.

    I agree with you that many things about Jesus sounded kinda great ...But still that dont remove all the bad stuff ...And there must be bad stuff connected ....This bad shit happening in and around christianity aint been delived out of the blue by some mythical bad stalk that delivers babies.

    All aint good ...There is bits written that connect the good stuff in the new testiment with the other shit in the old testiment.

    Atleast thats how far to many folks translated it.

    Whether they translated it wrong makes little difference to the outcome that still happened.If it supposed to be a manaul for human life,its still well and truly proved itself to be a bloody disaster!.

    A disaster that many have payed the price for ...and still do.

    Peace to you too my friend !.

    Gandy

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  19. Feen..." Gandy, religion may be useless, I don't know?"

    In my mind that would be going to far to far.Religion atleast has good cultural value .

    But i dont think it is wise to continue to promote it as making any human any better than the next human is ,that is a recipe for bigotry.Or suggesting without it people will go to some terrible placed called hell, that is fear tactic and psychological abuse.

    Used in the right manner religion would be no worse for humanity than Christmas is.

    But we know Father Christmas is myth.

    That makes it very different to Gods that are promoted as a proven fact, leading to a place said to be either heaven or hell.

    This is what cause the pain and suffering.And abusive practices.

    If faiths were "promoted" as ancient culture .They would be so much less likely to cause any harm.

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  20. bobaloo and G-Money aka G$

    I never understood why they say "Viagra can cause blindness" until now. You guys got such a hard on over Christianity you've blinded yourselves in atheist dogma.

    The reason I think killing puppies is wrong is because God has implanted a conscience inside of us. He has set eternity in our hearts and placed a spirit in all of us. That's why when we do something noble we feel good about ourselves. And when we do something wrong we feel guilty.

    I know you don't believe that, so let me set up a scenario with your "morals" verses God's morals.

    When someone kills and tortures a puppy for their enjoyment "decent" people get mad. And if your allowed to get mad over someone killing a puppy, how do you think a holy God should react to sin. Holy is way way up there, a lot higher on the chart than decent is. Yet you reserve judgment and indignation upon puppy killers. You think you have that right,(which is fine by the way) yet you wont let God have the same indignation and judgment on those who sin against him. Are you better than God? And God is the only one who is pure and Holy.

    I know you might have 50 reasons not to believe in God. But the stoning of children in the O.T. shouldn't be one. I'll try to explain it for you, then you will only have 49 reasons not to believe. God gave His people (the Jews) a bunch of rules to set them apart from the rest of the world. Then this group of people would become a kingdom of priests to reach the world with the message of "we need to reconcile ourselves to God". One of those rules was to stone smart mouthed, snotty, little drunkards who sat around all day playing xbox and smoking cigarettes on the govt's. dime. But it was up to the parents to take their son to the "elders" and usually this entailed a trial. But something tells me if the parents had to drag this kid to the Elders then it wasn't a very common practice. It's not like you killed your kid because he didn't take out the trash or clean his room. Now don't miss these next two very important things....

    #1. Those rules were just for the Jewish people of that day. When Christ came we were no longer held under the restrictions of the law. here's proof...

    #2. Another snotty ass little greedy punk in the New Testament took his inheritance from his dad, left home and spent it all on parties, skanks and booze. Did his father stone him? No. He did the opposite, he threw a big ole celebration for him, only after he threw his arms around his son and hugged him and wept for joy.

    There is a big ole fatted calf and lots of rejoicing ready for us to enjoy when we turn to our Father in heaven.

    Now there is only 49 reasons your still an atheist. Maybe after my next post there will be only 48?

    Later prodigal bitches, feeno

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  21. Feen..."The reason I think killing puppies is wrong is because God has implanted a conscience inside of us. He has set eternity in our hearts and placed a spirit in all of us. That's why when we do something noble we feel good about ourselves. And when we do something wrong we feel guilty."

    "#1. Those rules were just for the Jewish people of that day. When Christ came we were no longer held under the restrictions of the law. here's proof..."

    Fine story Feen .And one thats been used by faithful folks to cover their human mistakes and the fact Gods never were involved in morals that evolved.

    But its still only an excuse,even if a mighty fine one that pulled to wool over the eyes of many faithful sheep, and allowed charasmatic priesty wolves to fool devoted followers.Followers who lacked use of scepticism due to nurological defects that have now even been recorded by science.

    Your bible itself is a mighty fine recording to prove just how "very human" morality always is.Always was.And always will be.

    If you try saying God implanted the conscience in beings.Seems he also was mighty random only planting half a conscience in some primates and animals,and even less in others who dont give killing puppies a second thought.

    You try telling us God changes his mind,and what was ok years ago for christian,becomes not ok later on.

    What happend? ...Has God finally quit changing his mind all of a sudden now? ...When christians happen to think it suits?.

    Why even today do we still find many Christian are being found wanting, and immoral and abusive ,and needing to revert to more and more watered down Christianitys.Trying to hide behind !, telling us certain bible things are/were not really supposed to be taken literally.

    Morals still evolving Feen?.God still in the process of changing "his mind",and reminding humans what was for old times,is not for todays practices?.

    Feen your fine story once used to convince alot of devoted humans.In ancient times when gods were thought to even cast killer lightning bolts,charisma and superstition ruled and most all people believed.

    Logic and common sense wasnt able to be used to understand God dont cast killer lightning bolts or start killer earthquakes either.

    And logic and common sense didnt allow enough people to see through the fine storys and see morals were also evolving,either.

    Feen said.."There is a big ole fatted calf and lots of rejoicing ready for us to enjoy when we turn to our Father in heaven.

    Now there is only 49 reasons your still an atheist. Maybe after my next post there will be only 48?

    Later prodigal bitches"

    L.o.L ...Woof Woof!!...Full marks for the use of humor Feen.But there is much more to be gained by first sorting out this life that we actually know about.And take it from me there is still! plenty! of families that would that they only had the chance, to share a fatted calf in this life with their own families.

    Only when faith becomes a far more watered down version universally will that become more likely for everyone.

    Because my cult family are about as likely to change their minds overnight,as you are Feen.Like you, even if in a different way, they are still devoted.

    Its why i have had to accept not expecting any fast changes.Had to accept logic and common sense has taken the slow road.

    Making the mega infallibility of these ancient holy books more widely known,is going to be the best way/only way to hasten the progress.Because many faithful folk aint about to try listening or helping matters along much.

    Especially the calvinist types! ..L.o.L

    And even some kind well meaning folks who think maybe its about ..."Dont worry ...be happy" dont understand enough sometimes?.

    They kinda acts like prodigal bitches! on the faith side of the fence?...Never willing to admit things always evolved and changed anyway.

    But its cool .Rome wasnt built in a day either.

    From one prodigal bitch to another ,chow for now!

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  22. Boo! I'm a crazzzzzy atheist!

    Did I scare you?

    Some random humor brought to you by Atheist Inc.

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  23. feen - "You guys got such a hard on over Christianity you've blinded yourselves in atheist dogma."

    ...and then you go on for the next 6 paragraphs displaying your erection for Christian dogma...?

    Here is why my "50" reasons are good reasons.

    1 - "The reason I think killing puppies is wrong is because God has implanted a conscience inside of us."

    No, the reason torturing puppies is wrong is because we, in our society, have socially evolved to the point that we have decided it is wrong and will not be tolerated, therefor, we have passed laws against such behavior. That I can prove historically. You are making a blind assertion based on a 2,000 year old book mixed with Christian dogma. You don't "know" "God has implanted a conscience inside of us" because at this point, you don't "know" God exists.

    2 - "You think you have that right,(which is fine by the way) yet you wont let God have the same indignation and judgment on those who sin against him."

    I got news for you feen. I consider puppy torture in a whole different class than sabbath breaking. But that's just me. How about you? I mean, I remember as late as the 1970's, and you probably remember also, when in some (many?) states we had laws preventing retailers from doing business on Sunday. That was based on the Christian belief that Sunday was the sabbath, which was based on the OT law.
    I don't think we had very many animal cruelty laws in the 70's.
    From my perspective, some of the things God considers "sin" are just plain silly.

    3 - "I know you might have 50 reasons not to believe in God. But the stoning of children in the O.T. shouldn't be one. I'll try to explain it for you,..."

    feen, I was a Christian for 25 years. Do you really think you have to explain this for me? I know what you believe because I once believed the same thing.

    "#1. Those rules were just for the Jewish people of that day. When Christ came we were no longer held under the restrictions of the law. here's proof..."

    "#2. Another snotty ass little greedy punk in the New Testament took his inheritance from his dad, left home and spent it all on parties, skanks and booze. Did his father stone him? No. He did the opposite, he threw a big ole celebration for him, only after he threw his arms around his son and hugged him and wept for joy."

    Feen, I see the difference, do you? The difference is between two completely different religions. The OT and the NT do not belong in the same book. One is an ancient Hebrew tribal belief system, the other is an amalgam offshoot of Jewish and newer polytheistic religions. That's why your #1 and #2 are so vastly different. The gods of the OT and NT are not the same gods. Just ask any Jew.

    BTW, was the "Ten Commandments" "...rules were just for the Jewish people of that day."?
    I just wonder how YOU, feeno, determine what parts of the OT were "just for the Jewish people of that day" and what parts are for you, feeno, today?

    "There is a big ole fatted calf and lots of rejoicing ready for us to enjoy when we turn to our Father in heaven."

    Oops, you forgot about us, the non believers, who will be convicted of the sin of unbelief, and will be cast into the lake of fire where we will spend eternity with our father the devil. No big ole fatted calf for us.

    "Now there is only 49 reasons your still an atheist."

    feen, I am still an atheist because your arguments are insufficient to persuade me from my objections concerning Christian beliefs.

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  24. "The reason I think killing puppies is wrong is because God has implanted a conscience inside of us."

    feen, when I was in the 5th grade, my parents gave me a Daisy BB rifle. As with most boys, I eventually wanted to try it out on a bird. I fired randomly into a tree one day, and after several shots, a small bird fell to the ground. I ran over and picked it up and held it in my hand. It chirped weakly twice, then died.
    I was suddenly overwhelmed with sadness. Not guilt, but sadness. I cried so hard. My friend who was with me, looked puzzled at me and said - "It's only a bird".

    Can you explain why one 10 year old boy feels extreme grief over a "sinful" act, yet another 10 year old boy is unaffected by a "sinful" act?

    From my perspective, you claim that "...God has implanted a conscience inside of us." is a simplistic, inefficient, and incorrect explanation for what goes on inside our heads when we commit "wrongful" acts. Some people, young and old, feel bad about shooting a bird, torturing puppies, and molesting children. Others seem to be unaffected by such acts. This weakens your already completely unsubstantiated claim that your God "has implanted a conscience inside of us".

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  25. I find it interesting that on this thread alone Bob has asked no fewer than 11 questions concernong the beliefs of others and yet he steadfastly refuses to answer just one question himself.

    I further find it notable that not one single, self-proclaimed "free thinker" that participates in this forum has called out either TB or Bobaloo on their intellectually dodgy behavior for steadfast refusaL to answer direct questions when posed to them.

    I'm certainly not suprised though.

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  26. Uh Huh... Hold Tight. Let the attempts to derail begin.

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  27. I agree with Gandolf in saying that religion has cultural value. Indeed it does, as it also adds value to our shared histories and languages. And, Bob is also right in pointing out that the Jewish faith extremely diverted between the OT and the NT.

    All of this moral stuff- let us look at the puppy thing. Yes, on the one hand, we have evolved enough empathy to understand that killing an innocent puppy is wrong. But, what if the puppy was hit by a car and was suffering? Or, what if the puppy had cancer and was facing a very painful death? Technically, you are sinning when you choose to spare the animal the pain if you look at this in such limited terms. Or, what if the puppy was completely healthy, but bit a little kid in an attack? Well, who is wrong in killing the puppy? And, I think that this is what Bob is getting at. The Bible is really open to interpretation, and the position of killing a puppy really changes when you introduce different variables.

    Which brings me back to what I was originally saying. In my opinion, the majority of people are not taught to be intelligent in the way that they think about religion. Religion, without historical contexualization, is blind.

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  28. JD-

    I would just like to point out that not all questions are deserving of an answer.

    For example, if I were to ask, "What is the exact hue of invisible pink unicorns?" you would know that the question was nonsense so not worth bothering supplying an answer.

    Also, it's up to the person his/herself to hold themselves to intellectual honesty.

    I propose if more Christians did this then there would be more atheists.

    But my point is, sometimes pushing rhetoric requires one to bend the truth in their favor. Yet it doesn't mean they are consistently made liars.

    Christian apologists bend the truth in their favor every chance they get. To expect atheists not to be allowed to do the same is a double standard.

    Just saying.

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  29. @ Tristan. He is a troll. Unless he actually proves himself to be otherwise, I will never answer any question that he thinks that he has posed at me. Enough is enough with this clown. How many times has his incessant trolling completely derailed an interesting thread? If he wants to play in the big sandbox, he better undo the bad habits he learned in kindergarten.

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  30. C'mon man

    OK Vickster, try this.. Atheist apologists bend the truth in their favor every chance they get. To expect Christians not to be allowed to do the same is a double standard.

    BTW, I believe this. But it would be nice for the Christian to know that they don't need to bend the truth. But this is not a knock against atheism, it's a knock against our fallen natures, Christian or otherwise.

    peace out, feeno

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  31. I would just like to point out that not all questions are deserving of an answer

    I suppose that this is true.

    But in these specific examples that I am citin, I would like to know if the followng questions posed to Bob and Tink fall into that catagory...

    I posited a definition of the word "evidence"

    ""evidence
    –noun
    1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
    2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign.
    3. Data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.


    Bob then stated, quote, "I completely agree with the evidence definition you provided. And the bible does not fit into it at all. That's why it is not "evidence" for what it claims happened".

    My follow up question was merely WHY it does not fit the definition of the word evidence and "If not, may I ask where you obtained your particular definition of the word "evidence" from?"

    Repeatedly. Ad nauseum. And yet one would think that answering a simple question would be a fine opportunity for him to point out how misinformed I am and yet he cannot do so.

    In the case of Tink, she indicated that there are "No miracles".

    I wondered how she could agree with sucha broad, sweeping statment and I then stated "Either prove that no miracles have occurred or modify your wording".

    One would think that either A. Evidence supporting her view would then be advanced, or B. She would modify her wording. Instead the magical word "troll" is siezed upon by both of them that in some mysterious way takes all pretinent discussion off the table and others are then urged to ignore me.

    For example, if I were to ask, "What is the exact hue of invisible pink unicorns?" you would know that the question was nonsense so not worth bothering supplying an answer

    See above. I would only add as an aside that the entire "Invisible Pink Unicorn" example really is as dumb as it sounds. If by definition, the unicorn is "invisible", then how does one become aware that it is "pink" in color? They never get around to answering that in that such an example is a complete farce from the word "Go".

    Also, it's up to the person his/herself to hold themselves to intellectual honesty

    I suppose this could be true as well. This forum, for all intents and purposes is an atheist forum. Let us list all of the Christians that post here, shall we?

    1. Feeno
    1-B. JD

    2. ( Insert the sound of crickets chirping here)

    Is it your belief that if I made a questionable statement in this forum and I was repeatedly asked to back up that statement, refused to do so and then produced a particular type of "magic" in that the repeated utterance of a certain word then took all ratioanal discussion off of the table, that I would not be criticized for it?

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  32. @ Feeno- This has nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing to do with me bending the truth. This is entirely personal to the troll.

    I have, on more than one occasion, explained to Gimli exactly what he thinks he is asking of me. Because he is a troll, he does not absorb the argument. Why waste my time again and again? This is not about the content that he is discussing. He has the same patterns over and over again. He is either A) Clinically insane, because he never learns. Just repeats the same logical errors with compounded misinformation.I tend to divert from this conclusion because he is able to string together new, yet insane, arguments on his own blog. or B) An online troll who gets off offending, being inflammatory and getting attention. I do not have time for either.

    Bob, keep learning. He will not stop asking us for the answers to his questions. Even though, you can clearly see that we have answered them. Trolling is very, very predictable.

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  33. @JD

    I will throw down the Gauntlet. KERRCHUNK!!! (Sound of thrown gauntlet hitting the ground. It is a very heavy gauntlet.) Are You Man/Fool Enough to Pick it Up?

    Can you prove that there is not a colony of Dwarves living at the center of the Earth who, working in shifts on a Giant Treadmill, cause the Earth rotate?

    When you sucessfully complete this task we will move on to proving that there are no miracles.

    Please disregard this challenge if you see fit.

    Mrs. Jeff

    Now, Who could take seriously a challenge issued by a dude who goes by Mrs. Jeff?

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  34. OH YEAH!!!

    Okay all you Naughty Atheist! It has come to my attention that some of you have not been giving Props (proper respect) to JD. You haven't been answering questions he has posed to his satisfaction and you have also been doing other bad stuff.

    I hereby command and order those who are guilty as charged to make little whips with which you must flagellate yourselves until sufficient penance has been made.

    Get With It!!!

    By Decree of,

    Mrs. Jeff

    Now, Who could take a decree isssued by a dude who goes by Mrs. Jeff seriously?

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  35. You know, I'm starting to think that maybe this name change to "Mrs. Jeff" wasn't such a good idea after all. I know I said that I thought that it had a nice "Ring" to it and that I didn't give a F**K whether Jeff liked it or not, but...

    I don't know...

    I kinda felt like I had more power and authority when I signed off as "The Reverend Sub-Cee" or "The Sub-Cool One" or "Sub-Cooler Schuler" or even just plain old "SteveO", know what I mean?

    Is it too late to change my mind?

    Please Jeff, threaten to kick my ass or something if I don't give you back your name sans the "Mrs." I need to find a way out of this mess...

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  36. Can you prove that there is not a colony of Dwarves living at the center of the Earth who, working in shifts on a Giant Treadmill, cause the Earth rotate?


    I was previously unaware of this theory and if you would like to present evidence to support this, then please post the relevant link here and we will examine it to see if it is trustworthy.

    If no such evidence exists and you are comparing a complete fairy tale that you arbitrarily made up then I would suggest that you drop trying to make such a comparison. Say what you want, you would first have to prove that the Bible is an arbitrary collection of writings and even such imbeciles as the majority of the so-called New Atheists would not argue as such.

    It has come to my attention that some of you have not been giving Props (proper respect) to JD. You haven't been answering questions he has posed to his satisfaction and you have also been doing other bad stuff

    This is almost correct Steve. Tink and Blob havent answered the direct questions that were posed to them at all, nevermind to my or anybody else's satisfaction.

    I will forget about asking you for one single example of..

    1) Any criticisms of your fellow co-practicioners of your non-theistic religion for writings thingslike..

    you stuck your big fat runny nose in and dripped snot all over the place.
    Yes, I am insulting you.
    You are a jack ass of the highest order.
    You wouldn't recognize a decent, calm dialog if it sat on your face and wiggled.
    You are a short,chubby, internet bully who hides behind his 13" monochrome CRT desperately trying to offend, but your attempts have no more affect than sand chaffing my crack after a day at the beach.
    I hate you I hate you I hate you I hope you die
    (In "jest" of course)

    And also numerous troll references because I dared to ask them to substantiate their claims. If you had done so, you would have provided an example by now.

    2) 2 interesting topics that you have offered up for discussion (or even one for that matter). And..

    3) One single original, thought provoking concept or idea you have ever brought up here.

    What is it that skeptics say about "absence of evidence"?

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  37. JDUDE!

    It's always good to hear from you! Somehow you brighten up even my darkest day. And even though today wasn't one of my darkest days, in fact today has been glaringly bright, you have somehow made it glaringly brighter!

    Enough with the pleasantries you say? Okay, let's get down to the real nitty-gritty. Point by Point.

    Point One or "Mrs. Jeff dares to Criticize Redneck Atheist Drivel"

    JDude, my friend, did you not notice that I, the one and only Mrs. Jeff, issued a decree earlier today in which I commanded and ordered those Atheist who have not given you proper respect (and who have done other bad stuff too) to LITERALLY WHIP THEMSELVES INTO SHAPE. If that is not having your back, I don't know what is. Point Dismissed!

    As far as I can tell, Points Two and Three are essentially the same Point which can be condensed into "The Jokester formerly known as SteveO's (et al) contribution to this Forum by way of introducing interesting Topics, Concepts, or Ideas." Again, without reviewing my entire history of very limited participation in this forum, just today I introduced the "Colonial Wee Men Theory of Geo-Rotation" which I think would meet anybodies standard for being an interesting topic, concept or idea, although it's originality is disputable. I would have to do further enquiry to determine if this theory is uniquely my own or not. Points Dismissed!

    Mrs. Jeff

    And I was afraid nobody would take me even a little bit serioulsy under my new Pen Name! Count on JD to look past such trivial and superfiscial considerations and to demonstrate his willingness to engage and reveal the man behind the name!

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  38. JDude, my friend, did you not notice that I, the one and only Mrs. Jeff, issued a decree earlier today in which I commanded and ordered those Atheist who have not given you proper respect (and who have done other bad stuff too) to LITERALLY WHIP THEMSELVES INTO SHAPE. If that is not having your back, I don't know what is

    Yes. If I did not mention it earlier, then you officially hold the title of Least Dodgy Atheist in this entire forum IMO. (Perhaps Mr. Jeff is a close second which, to me anyway is a suprise. Go figure). I would like to state that for the record if I may.

    just today I introduced the "Colonial Wee Men Theory of Geo-Rotation" which I think would meet anybodies standard for being an interesting topic

    It much more fits Merriam Webster's definition for the word canard. Unless of course you would like to argue otherwise.

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  39. JD said.."In the case of Tink, she indicated that there are "No miracles".

    I wondered how she could agree with sucha broad, sweeping statment and I then stated "Either prove that no miracles have occurred or modify your wording".

    One would think that either A. Evidence supporting her view would then be advanced, or B. She would modify her wording. Instead the magical word "troll" is siezed upon by both of them that in some mysterious way takes all pretinent discussion off the table and others are then urged to ignore me."

    Hi JD...If Tink had changed the wording to being "no supernaturally formed miracles" ,you mean?.

    Dont know about you JD, but i had already guessed thats very likely exactly what Tink would have been refering to.I didnt for one moment think Tink didnt think sometimes "random natural miracles" exist, like two people might so happen to be in exactly the same place! at exactly the same day! at exactly the same second!.And meet up for a chat or a fight or to fall in love,or maybe even to save one from death.

    After all you dont think athiests dont think "random nonsupernatural miracles" dont happen,do you?.

    No i dont think so.

    JD it seems to me sometime you like many theist try to input silly little stupid! "finer points" in debates,just to make matters more "awkward" and "confusing" and "difficult" if you can.

    It seems to me by doing this ,you hope to use intellect to try and frustrate the debate and gain an upper hand by mere intellect ...Something your mate Voxy trys doing.

    But it dont fool everyone.It certainly dont fool me.I might not have been very educated, but that dont mean im a total fool.

    I can see right through these tactics ...I grew up knowing tactics MANIPULATIVE MINDCONTROLING theists TRY to use!.

    You said..."I suppose this could be true as well. This forum, for all intents and purposes is an atheist forum. Let us list all of the Christians that post here, shall we?

    1. Feeno
    1-B. JD

    2. ( Insert the sound of crickets chirping here)

    Is it your belief that if I made a questionable statement in this forum and I was repeatedly asked to back up that statement, refused to do so and then produced a particular type of "magic" in that the repeated utterance of a certain word then took all ratioanal discussion off of the table, that I would not be criticized for it? "

    For starters.Even after all ive said above ,i still "personally" happen to think this blog of Feens,would be worse without your presense.Yes thats right,even though i understand the frustrations Tink and Bob and others? feel,i still feel its a good thing you post here.I like to see Feen feeling its not looking like this blog is all about us against him.And besides that, i dont see this as being any war where one side must win at any cost.

    You piss me off to sometimes JD,because of much the same reasons Tink and Bob have,which i have detailed above.But for me, maybe im more used to it,im not willing to let it get to me the same and because ive dealt with tactical theists who like to frustrate and manipulate matters.For me its become like,water off a ducks back!.

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  40. You said.."that I would not be criticized for it?"

    Yes! that has been the case.Though i cant be bother sifting back through threads now, to find the details to provide the evidence.

    Many times ive discussed stuff,that Feen didnt want to answer or maybe just never had the time.You never held him to it!,and to be quite honest its not any war! here,and its quite ok by me if it dont happen .

    There has also been a few times! when you yourself! never answered stuff i purposely asked you!,Feen never demanded you do!, and i never made a big flap! about you not bothering to answer either.Neither did i get in any big flap that Feen as a theist, never demanded you do.

    JD we all have our own downfalls....I sure do know some of mine! ...With me its often far to much anger ...and frustration and a lack of enough formal education!, which would allow me to better explain myself better...without use of so many "long comments".

    JD how about it,no need, dont make any of us into your enemy!.I try to not see you as "the enemy"! either.Maybe the best way to do that is to admit (none of us are perfect).What do you think.

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  41. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  42. Feeno said:

    "OK Vickster, try this.. Atheist apologists bend the truth in their favor every chance they get. To expect Christians not to be allowed to do the same is a double standard."

    Oh, I agree. I wasn't saying that atheists never lie. But I was making a distinction...

    Mainly, I think we could agree that Christians, being theists, make the truth claim "God exists."

    The question remains unanswered. Nobody knows either way for 100% certainty. I mean, if somebody did know for sure that "God exists" then they would win the Nobel Prize for Theology for proving God's existence beyond a reason of a doubt. This has not occurred.

    So my point was, when it comes to the truth claim "God exists" atheists are being truthful in stating that such isn't so--at least not yet.

    This doesn't mean God may not be existent... but we're just saying that the claim to know God exists is not proved, and so is an insincere statement whenever a Christian espouses God is real.

    Atheists who say a deity is 100% non-existent may be jumping the gun too, since we can't know if some nebulous deity, some form of a god, exists or not... but we can cite how improbable and far-fetched it is.

    What I think most atheists are saying is that your *specific God (e.g. the Christian God of the Bible) does not exist.I think this claim, the the Christian God is erroneous, has an abundance of support. And more importantly, is in no danger of being refuted.

    So I see no problem with atheist integrity on this point. Whereas I find most Christians are putting all their faith in the hope that it's true--and then claiming ad hoc that because they feel it's true it is. This is simply circular--and doesn't suffice when making blatant truth claims.

    Either God exists or he doesn't. Since there is no tangible evidence, and anything which Christians tout as evidence is spurious at best, I think we can safely assume atheists aren't the ones who have to worry about the "truth" of the matter.Furthermore, you can't assume to be proved correct when you have absolutely no trustworthy evidence, no proof to speak of, and say it is the truth. This simply amounts to a falsehood and wishful thinking. A noted delusion.

    When it comes to the question of God, the atheist has *nothing to lose.

    I predict the Christian rebuttal might be, "Unless God turns out to be real... then atheists are in heaps of trouble!" But then that's assuming, A) that God is real (more useless conjecture at this point), and B) it presumes too much since you're claiming to know God's mind is made up about concerning all atheists--and that's dishonest to the core.

    And I've already mentioned how the Bible can't be trusted... so to say the "Bible says..." is just begging the question.

    Yet when the atheist points out that the Bible is faulty, that Christians concept of God is flawed, and that Christians presume to know to much, and by sheer observation is doesn't seem like God exists... this is being honest with what reality depicts.

    That's all I'm saying.

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  43. I do not do stupid. I like intelligent, I like smart. I am not going to the level of the troll anymore. Again, he derails. I actually agree with Gandolf. I do think that its better that JD posts here too. If that is what he actually did. He trolls. And, I have no time for that.

    Might I add that I have given Gimli very strong warning that this day was coming. If Gimli decides to step up to bat, pose articulate and informed arguments, attempts to exhibit tolerance toward others, and is willing to learn from opposing views, I will retract my position. Until then, this is all that he gets. Cause, you get what you give.

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