Thursday, July 15, 2010

South Korea is crawling with Christians

I have a couple books written by Mr. Loftus. He was cool enough to sign one of them for me. And actually gave me another book titled "Why I Became an Atheist: Personal reflections and additional arguments"

I have read this book a few times but have read some chapters even more. I am not going to critique this book. In fact if I was a critic I'd say it was well written and informative. Now having said that I would like to ask you all a question about several positions mentioned in the book and or on "debunking Christianity".

I will list several reasons why he (John) became an Atheist.
#1. Prayer doesn't work.
#2. Christians aren't any better than non-believers.
#3. The fact that Christians are afraid not to believe.
#4. The fact that where you are born determines what religion you will be.
#5. No miracles.
#6. Because how do we know which religion is right?

So here's my question or maybe it's just a statement; all this tells me is this: If God answered just one prayer or if there is just one Christian who truly lived like Christ or just one person that believed in Jesus when fear played no part or one dude born in India was to become a believer or God performed just one miracle and one religion (Christianity) is right, then that would only prove that Christ is real.

Atheists tend to focus on everything but themselves and God. They would rather talk about things like social injustices and switch the attention to those issues, or just put God on trial. It might make Atheists feel better about themselves that they are against witch hunts, slavery or things like the crusades. But again if you are gonna use this reasoning then we'd only have to find one Christian during these incidents that was against these things based upon his/her faith to make the argument invalid.

His reasons tho truthful, at best could only prove there aren't as many Christians out there that claim to be.

Later, feeno

80 comments:

  1. God doesn't answer prayers. I guess if you pray for stuff, you might get it, but I can attest to having tried hundreds, if not thousands of different methods for attempting to communicate with the divine. And I mean really communicate, not get someone to love me, or pass a math test, or get a new car.

    Maybe that's the problem. I don't have relationships with people who ignore me, even if they give me stuff.

    Atheists tend to focus on everything but themselves and God.

    Eh, I know a lot of atheists who obsess about God, and even more who are pretty big egotists. I think the problem is that the Bible undeniably condones things like slavery and even treating women as property (in the sense that fathers make marriage decisions with the husband, though many argue the New Testament is at times gender equal, I would say that the only equality is that both genders can attain salvation and that women still have to keep their big mouths shut while in church).

    I would say a Christian who opposes slavery isn't a good Christian, because they clearly have not read the Bible.

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  2. If God answered just one prayer, or performed just one actual miracle, it would mean there was a God, so you're right about those two at least, but good luck establishing either.

    As for the rest, I doubt very much that Loftus meant them as absolute statements about all two billion individual Christians.

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  3. Like Ginx stated above, I have also tried thousands of time to communicate with God. Even as a non-believer I have repeatedly tried prayer, meditation and Bible study to open some type of corridor of communication with the Divine, all to no avail. This whole matter is quite complex and involves enquiry that has been on-going over the 54 years of my life. My point being that, as is true for all of us, there is much more to me than meets the eye. Particullarly true since I have made so few comments here.

    Anyhow, I rarely engage in theistic, atheistic, or anti-theistic debate and discussion, which is not to say I have not, or do not, give it all quite a bit of study, thought, and consideration.

    I think that sometimes the folks who come to be thought of as representative of any group or class of people (Atheist, Christian, Whatever...) are the more visibly polemic and shrill characters who might not really be very good examples of the "quieter majority".

    For example, would any of us think that say...Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson, are anything like feeno? Probably not.

    Which reminds me, what's up with your name feeno, AKA Ice Daddy from da' Nady? What's the low down on the down low?

    SteveO

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  4. I think that sometimes the folks who come to be thought of as representative of any group or class of people (Atheist, Christian, Whatever...) are the more visibly polemic and shrill characters who might not really be very good examples of the "quieter majority".

    Gee I wonder why... maybe because psychotics make for better ratings on TV and better strawmen in debate.

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  5. "If God answered just one prayer..."

    Then obviously God would exist. I agree.

    "...if there is just one Christian who truly lived like Christ..."

    But even Christians will disagree on what it means to "live like Christ", so how are we to judge this one?

    "...just one person that believed in Jesus when fear played no part..."

    Since we can't get inside their head, how are we to know? Was John saying that "all" Christians believe out of fear?

    "...one dude born in India was to become a believer..."

    I think it is obvious that John did not say that "everyone" is "always" a product of their place of birth.

    "...God performed just one miracle..."

    Then God would exist. I agree.

    "...and one religion (Christianity) is right..."

    I have no idea how this could be determined (There is a tad bit of devision amongst believers).

    "...then that would only prove that Christ is real."

    Well, 2 out of the 6 would.

    Feen, if you prayed a specific prayer to Jesus that could only be granted by the intervention of a supernatural being, and it was granted, I would stand in complete amazement, and after several repetitions and tests to confirm that it was not some magic trick, I would agree with you that Jesus indeed is real and answered your request. That answered prayer would qualify as a miracle.

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  6. #5. No miracles

    This shows just how intellectually shallow this guy really is.

    He cannot possibly claim to have knowledge that miracles do not occur or have not occured in the past. Actual posession of such knowledge would itself merit the title of a "miracle".

    Just try and convince Janet Boynes that the circumstances that led her to Christ were not is some way a miracle. And this is just one example.

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  7. 1,

    "If God answered just one prayer"

    Thats true Feen.Yet every time its been "scientifically tested" its come up as looking like a fake.Why do you suppose this might happen?,specially when your bible happens to mention, how supposedly often prayer was "once proved" to have actually honestly worked.Seems kinda awfully questionable dont it?.

    "or if there is just one Christian who truly lived like Christ"

    No i suggest if God/Jesus was really supernatural,then we should be seeing the effects as being widespread and as quite obvious.This is what i think John is actually talking about.

    For instance people take a asprin and we then happen to notice "many peoples" headaches seem to disappear .Hence we know asprin honestly has an "honest effect" on people and it causes head aches to disappear.
    Jesus is supposed to be a good man ,whats more he was supposed to have SUPERNATURAL POWERS!.So surely we would expect the effects to be more widespread and obvious than say the effects of the merely NATURAL things such as asprin?.

    Yet we notice asprin actually has a far more positive and more widespread honest effect, than the supposedly supernatural power of Jesus does.

    Can you give us a honest explaination for this please Feen?

    "just one person that believed in Jesus when fear played no part"

    But in my opinion you are overlooking the point Feen.Fear is "most often" the reason why most faiths evolved,fear of death and fear of a place people suggested as hell.

    If it wasnt the case then there would have been no way to control people and "have them" feel there was some need to join your faith and follow the rules.

    Imagine if God wasnt having a mean and nasty side to him .There would then have been no need for the special prophets,no need for the tyths that were CONTROLLED by the particular brand of church group.No need to harrass people about needing to repent.

    Feen "fear" was always the main ingrediant needed to install faith in humans ,even sacrifice of animals or children was only brought on by the "fear" of what was suggested to be going to happen if you didnt.

    Once again yes im sure there happens to be a few folks who happen to have faith without fear ...But that does very little to change the fact that most faith has always been inforced by use of fear.

    Explain this please Feen?

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  8. 2,

    "or one dude born in India was to become a believer"

    No again Feen maybe? you miss what John was actually trying to point out.Doesnt it seem a little strange to you that it actually takes the "cultures of humans" to spread all the different faiths ?.Like we dont see "Christianity" springing up in places like China ,unless "Christians" take it there.We dont see "Hinduism" spring up here in New Zealand ,unless some "Hindus" happen to bring it here!.We dont see "Islam" spring up here in New Zealand unless some "Islamist" teach it here.

    Gods are said to supposedly be "supernatural" and faiths were said to be honestly about things that were connected to the "devine".

    So why does it ALWAYS take the "natural phenomena" of human culture to bring these beliefs? .....If it was honestly true that God "supernaturally" passed on the "devine knowledge" to Jews or who ever about "Christianity", then why couldnt it have also suddenly "supernaturally" have appeared in a "devine way" out of the blue in say some place like China or amongst the Maori here in New Zealand ?.That would have really proved it honestly true wouldnt it Feen.

    But what John is explaining is the only thing that seems proved honestly true ,is that faith is ONLY OBVIOUSLY very culturally connected.

    Dont you see that point Feen ?

    Please can you give us a honest explaination for the reason?.

    I realize you dont much like Johns lack of "faith" ,but hey give the man the benefit of doubt, of atleast trying to be a little bit honest about what he has obviously given a whole lot of "in depth thought".

    "or God performed just one miracle"

    Yes and why shouldnt this be fair? .Do you think it HONESTLY seem so likely that if there actually be any God-/s ,they wouldnt likely do personal miracles to make themselves positively known ? ....Or do you suggest some supposedly loving God-/s would HONESTLY be far more likely to leave it like a matter of guess work ...Wide open to ABUSE of all the wolves and false prophets of the world who could then abuse and fleece the sheep ....Like they actually have!.

    Why not qustion the fact that its ALWAYS BEEN the humans that suggested the miracles honestly exist ? ....Why not have it straight from the horses mouth ? ...Miracles from God-/s

    Wouldnt that have saved a whole load of troubles ? ....God-/s supposedly are loving right ?, and dont set traps or cause troubles.

    Please give us an honest explaination Feen .

    John has thought a lot about this in great depth ,and cant see good reasonable reasons why we only ever see these supposed miracle from men....Yet never ever see miracles from any actual God-/s

    "and one religion (Christianity) is right, then that would only prove that Christ is real."

    Yes well that would seen logical and kinda lots more like real common sense ...Wouldnt it Feen.

    I mean in all honesty ....Without all the bullshite and mega scripture and mega jagon and memes written in so very many books.

    Why is it we dont clearly see that quite obviously its Christianity or Islam or Hinduism that must be the religion thats so obviously correct? .Why is it that its "so very obvious" that it ALWAYS takes HUMANS and CULTURE that decides.

    But you are overstating John here,because as far as i know he personally doesnt question whether Jesus quite possibly existed .I dont actually know for sure, but maybe John dont even question that maybe even Muhammad quite possibly existed also. ...But still thats akin to suggesting that proof that somebody called Benny Hinn actually existed ,might also be proof that the Christian God exists too.

    Thats the point here.Just because certain men might have honestly existed ,dont do anything much to prove a God also existed too.

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  9. JD said..."This shows just how intellectually shallow this guy really is.

    He cannot possibly claim to have knowledge that miracles do not occur or have not occured in the past. Actual posession of such knowledge would itself merit the title of a "miracle".


    Just try and convince Janet Boynes that the circumstances that led her to Christ were not is some way a miracle. And this is just one example. "

    Oh you are joking right .Its a poe ?.Its a miracle if its not!

    L.o.L

    Suppose you might suggest if "one" crazy dude suggested asprin was a benefit, that would be enough to convince you he knew what he was talking about.

    Sheeze JD ...Your Janet Boynes is a extremely "long way short" of how obviously real miracles were once said to have been honestly proved in days of old.

    And here you are acusing somebody else of being "intellectually shallow".

    Its a poe right?.You are joking?

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  10. "Just try and convince Janet Boynes that the circumstances that led her to Christ were not is some way a miracle. And this is just one example."

    I read the link. Could someone point out for me at what point the "miracle" begins and where it ends?

    Perhaps we need a definition for "miracle".

    I wonder if a Christian prays that God will help him pour milk into a glass, and when he then successfully pours milk into a glass, is it then proof that God performs miracles?

    Conversion stories are a dime a million.

    Christians like to trot out the dramatic conversion stories as evidence for the miraculous, but the less dramatic, average, normal conversion stories (that should be considered just as miraculous) never make it on the 700 Club.

    I wonder if JD speaks in tongues? Now that would be a miracle.

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  11. I read the link. Could someone point out for me at what point the "miracle" begins and where it ends?

    Given that you have demonstrated little more than complete ignorance repeatedly in this forum, yes, I will show you. I'l type ver-y slow-ly so I hope you an keep up.

    1) a person that was once a lesbian is not so anymore.

    2) This coversion began in a church that she felt a strong attraction to when she would pass by it.

    3) A chance encounter with a member of that church invited her to attend church there. The same church that she felt an attraction to out of all the possible churches in the area.

    4) This chance encounter occured at the ungodly hour of 3:00 AM.

    Might you like to offer up what the mathematical probability of all of these events lining up naturally might be without eternal forces working upon them?

    I wonder if JD speaks in tongues?

    No. Never have either.

    I wonder if Bob has an intellectually honest bone in his entire body and will answer a very basic, pointed and direct question that I posited to him, timestamped at 6:12 on this date, on the "Damn it's hot down here.. thread.

    A cursory shake of the Magic 8 Ball says "Don't count on it".

    Why would he want to start now?

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  12. I think it would be a miracle if JD spoke any sense, let alone in tongues.

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  13. Oh this is rich:

    "1) a person that was once a lesbian is not so anymore."

    I wonder how many women, who were straight, but are now lesbians? Was it a "miracle" when THEY changed their sexual preference?

    "2) This coversion began in a church that she felt a strong attraction to when she would pass by it."

    Sung to the tune of "Feelings, nothing more than feelings..." Truly, God does work in mysterious ways, like giving a lesbian a "feeling" that she should go to a specific church :)

    "3) A chance encounter with a member of that church invited her to attend church there. The same church that she felt an attraction to out of all the possible churches in the area."

    Exactly - "all the possible churches". So what! How many people end up IN A CHURCH, ANY CHURCH? Answer - most!

    "4) This chance encounter occured at the ungodly hour of 3:00 AM."

    Now that I will buy. If anything happens to me at 3:00am, other than an unconscious fart, it would be a miracle.

    "I wonder if Bob has an intellectually honest bone in his entire body and will answer a very basic, pointed and direct question that I posited to him, timestamped at 6:12 on this date, on the "Damn it's hot down here.. thread."

    Please hold your breath, please.

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  14. On Answered Prayer

    I did have one prayer that had a pretty clear answer. Actually quite a few of this variety, but this one illustrates the general scheme of how they go.

    "Oh Lord, show me a sign that you exist and are real. Oh Mighty One, if you want me to be filthy rich, now is your opportunity. Please let this this simple Lottery Ticket be the sole winner of the 240 million dollar Powerball money cache. And Yes, Oh Celestial King, I will take some of my winnings and buy feeno a brand new pick-up with super duper air conditioning."

    feeno, do you have a brand new pick up with super duper air conditioning received as a gift from me?

    And thusly, in a manner of speaking, the Lord spoke unto me.

    But then I thought I heard the gentle voice of an Angel whispering in my ear, "Try again next week, Sucker..."

    The Reverend Sub-Cee
    On Answered Prayer

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  15. I wonder how many women, who were straight, but are now lesbians? Was it a "miracle" when THEY changed their sexual preference?

    Breathtakingly stupid Blob.

    I outlined the steps in the process that she would define what happened to her as a miracle because you are simply too stupid to see it yourself, a fact that you admitted to earlier.

    The fact that she once was a lesbian and no longer is is one thing.

    I clearly stated that "the circumstances that led her to Christ" could be described as a miracle. Not the actual act of her conversion alone. Do try to keep up here.

    So what! How many people end up IN A CHURCH, ANY CHURCH? Answer - most!

    Source?

    So I guess that you won't be even trying to provide any mathematical equations to determine the probabilty like I asked you?

    I'm not suprised. Although I would say that I'm a bit confused in that on the last thread, you pussied out on answering a direct question put to you because *ahem*, your poor widdle peel-ings were hurt... Snifff...

    And yet on this thread when you (mistakenly) believed that you have a response that was more easily defensible you were ready to engage me lock, stock and stupid-as-Barney-Fife barrel.

    Perhaps you wouldnt mind explaining this unique method of discernment that you utilize when picking and choosing the questions that you answer.

    Because we all know that it couldnt be that you are a complete intellectual fraud now and have no idea what you are talking about.... Could it?

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  16. Meanwhile, while Bob stumbles through the convoluted Lego Land that constitutes what passes for his mind in a futile attempt at saving face, I came across this today on Fr. Dwight Longenecker's blog. (Which I link to over at my blog). I think that it touches on what we are discussing here...

    "the underlying point is that God's providence runs according to a fearful symmetry that we cannot always see. Things connect over time that we didn't expect to connect. People meet.Words are said in a casual way that bear fruit many years later. A connection here makes sense there. At one point you think it is all absurd and the suffering you are going through must be pointless. Then many years later you see how it all fit together and the Bible verse, "All thing work together for good for those who love God and who are called acccording to his purpose" suddenly becomes blazingly beautifully clear."

    I've experienced this in the past. Maybe some of you have as well. When one has a Christian worldview such things come sharply into perspective... At times.

    I could not imagine trying to get through life with a cold, hard strictly materialistic point of view. I can't imagine how empty that must seem.

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  17. Wow, I had to take a month off, and I can see nothing changes.

    Here is a miracle for you. How about God grows back the cortex of brain that JD is clearly lacking? That would be a start.

    Prayer doesn't work.

    That is pretty clear. This is still a world that still has brutal amounts of poverty, violence, addictions, and buffoons.

    No miracles.

    I like this one. This is true. Who decides what event is considered to be a miracle? This is completely based on subjective appraisal and analysis of the situation. Mentally ill people who use neologisms and word clanging now are not seen as a "miracle", they are looked at as being sick people. However, during biblical times, they was conceptualized a whole other way. This one I have to agree with.

    Glad to be back. Thank you for your concern over my absence Feeno. I am really trying to finish school, and busted my off of to get a good mark on my midterm stats exam.

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  18. JD, are you turning blue yet?

    "I could not imagine trying to get through life with a cold, hard strictly materialistic point of view. I can't imagine how empty that must seem."

    I actually love it. I am surrounded by the warmth of all the other robots that think just like me :)

    Conclusion - JD is actually an atheist posing as a Christian, trying desperately to make them look bad.

    It only took a few days for me to figure it out.

    See you in hell JD.

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  19. That is pretty clear. This is still a world that still has brutal amounts of poverty, violence, addictions, and buffoons

    "If that’s your strongest argument, you had better give up on atheism now. The so-called problem of evil is one of the most ignorant arguments that can possibly be made against the Christian God’s existence, let alone various other conceptions of the Divine. The existence of evil is absolutely central to the Christian faith, so it requires a remarkable amount of theological cluelessness to claim that the existence of observable evil can possibly serve as any sort of evidence against the Christian God. Moreover, anyone with an even cursory familiarity with the Bible, or for that matter, CS Lewis’s Space Trilogy, knows that “the god of this world” is not the Creator God....But no doubt “the problem of evil” is a serious objection to a God in whom no one of any religion actually believes, let alone worships." Link

    No miracles

    And how can you prove to me that miracles have never occurred? How did you come to this conclusion?

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  20. Bob said..."See you in hell JD. "

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGrQMD6Uqc

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  21. Bob...

    -->Refuses to answer why scripture does not fall within the realm of "evidence"

    -->Refuses to answer this question (supposedly) because he was offended.

    -->When his hero (Ingersoll's) argument was obliterated, Bob neither acknowledged as such nor even tried to defend him (probably realizing that he's out of his league and that it's a hopeless cause anyway)

    -->Yet in spite of his (alleged) hurt feelings, Bob constructs a strawman argument that is shown to be false. (See my post timestamped 3:55)

    -->Bob does not try to defend his earlier argument and instead (characteristically) goes ad hominen on me.

    Does the above misrepresent your position in any way Bobster?

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  22. JD i went and had a look at you mate Vox site,just for a bit of a laugh really.

    And there was a mixed bag of candy coated Christian all-sorts all thinking they knew whats what about God,while many also claimed how silly it was that atheists or humans could think they could ever understand God and his ways.

    Why even your mate Voxy was all mixed up ...->"I am NOT saying that God is not omniscient because I cannot know that. But I can say that I don't believe God is omniscient because I don't believe there is a Biblical basis for concluding that He is."

    So Voxy dont really know either.And im sure neither do those who wrote the bible,did he think about that point i wonder?.I mean if he knows he dont have a way to understand himself,why believe anyone else might have either?!!.Its a case of the blind leading da blind ...suppose ...huh?

    L.o.L

    This mixed bag of candy coated Christian allsorts came up with all their allsorted candy coated ideas about God ,as they always have done now for thousands of years .All scratching their little wee beanys!, and trying to understand what they see as obviously being so very confusing.

    While overlooking the quite possible probability,that quite likely God-/s just dont happen to even exist.....Which would stand to good reason!! why nobody ever happens to see! or even understands him and his ways!.

    Funny how faithful folks can dream up all manner of confusion ...while overlooking what seems quite obviously likely at the same time....L.o.L

    However seeing that simple fact, might be a little bit hard, for folks who brains have long "shut down",through the devotional worship of some charasmatic figure.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627574.200-brain-shuts-off-in-response-to-healers-prayer.html

    Why send us to a site where there is a group of brain damaged people with ->"Parts of the prefrontal and anterior cingulate cortices, which play key roles in vigilance and scepticism when judging the truth and importance of what people say" closed down ...JD?

    What should we really expect to learn from them ?

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  23. JD..."And how can you prove to me that miracles have never occurred? How did you come to this conclusion? "

    How would you come to the conclusion pink unicorns very likely dont exist ...JD

    Dont tell me you actually have faith in the pink unicorns also??.

    Now to understand this point properly ...It might pay you to shut off the devotion on charasmatic figures and ideas ....for awhile.So as to let the blood flow through the old prefrontal and anterior cingulate cortices .

    But hey how would you come to the conclusion Trolls,Fairys,Ghoblins,celestial tea pots circling mars dont really seem to exist either.

    You dont have faith in all these things too do ya JD ?.

    What good does it do for you to try making matters more confusing than they really need be? ....What do you gain?

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  24. JD that thread on Vox Popoli is almost as funny as watching a Rowan Atkinson skit.

    Take this little gem.

    --------------------

    "MikeMaier 7/15/10 3:53 PM
    Please, you're spewing nonsense and abusing the language.

    God has engaged humans in conversation. He is most certainly a "being". An undefinable one, sure. But a being nonetheless "

    ----------------------

    Oh i see God is undefinable ...But folks still know he`s a "being" anyway.

    Hmmmm ?? ...Dont sound so undefinable to me??

    Whats the Rub?....Damaged prefrontal and anterior cingulate cortices?? through to much devotion

    L.o.L..

    JD how many intelligent beings do you have a conversation with .That you find as being so very undefinable?.

    I guess maybe if you were a blind man or your "prefrontal and anterior cingulate cortices" were totally shut down or something .Yes you may run into some very real problems.

    But Gods supposedly one real smart cookie right?,if so happens he can do the things they try telling us,like creating a universe,and humans etc.So how come if God actually had these "conversations" with man ,and God is also very likely the best teacher? there ever was.

    Man still had so much trouble defining him/her/it?

    Goodness me JD ...The average teacher at our kindergartens and primary schools,dont seem to come up against all these terrific horrendous problems that God has ...In teaching his children.

    Did God severely flunk the teachers college?

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  25. Here is another candy coated Christian all-sort displaying intelligence that comes from devotional practice and prefrontal and anterior cingulate cortices sleepiness.

    -------------------------------------
    "Panzerdude 7/15/10 4:37 PM
    If we are all the products of random chance, then there is no such thing as "evil", therefore, the atheist shouldn't, in fact can't, have an objection to any form of random chance behavior.

    It is only because the atheist intuitively knows "right vs. wrong" that they see things as evil. Because in their own world view there is no such thing as evil.

    I find it funny how atheists rely on Christian principles to argue against the existence of God, like evil, when if they were consistent with their own philosophical position would not complain about anything "
    ---------------------------------

    Hmmmmm who said atheists are objecting to it?.Why is pointing out a simple fact of life,need to also be seen as a matter of objecting to it?.

    And no evil in any supernatural sense,obviously dont exist,if it did some babies might be "born" killers or thiefs or rapists.

    No atheist dont see things as evil in the supernatural sense,but that dont stop us working out whats right or wrong,good or bad ,worse and better etc.

    Hell even other animals do these things to some extent.When one horse bites another horses butt,it knows it aint really a good thing.Maybe because it knows what it feels like,or what the reaction will be.

    The horse dont need any Christian bible to read,Panzerdude ...Get down off your high horse man....Its only a freaking donkey!

    Christian principles ....pfffftt ...Next moment faithful idiots like you will be trying to claim, you also also own the air we breath.

    --------------------------------

    Panzerdick.->"In other words, how can one random chance behavior, thought or action be deemed "different" or "better" than any other random behavior, thought or action? The answer is, "It cannot."

    This is another reason why atheists are irrational; they behave and argue like Deists (i.e. care about good vs. evil), but deny the Deity. A true atheist would not care about anything, even their own life, since everything is random and meaningless...

    That brings the atheist philosopher Sartre to mind; he was at least philosophically consistent."

    -----------------------------

    Oh so if i smack you around the head with a piece of 4x2.

    You best have a theists book ..or else you wont ever be able to tell better from worse ?.

    Sheeeze ...Now i see why "devotion" is so extremely damaging to the prefrontal and anterior cingulate cortices

    And theists have the gall to call atheists irattional

    -------------------------
    Panzerdick-->"A true atheist would not care about anything, even their own life, since everything is random and meaningless.

    -------------------------

    Oh so that sheep i saw running around in the paddock taking care of its lamb,must have been a christian sheepy ..Because it was caring about something

    Look man stop all the devotion ..You just aint thinking right anymore...You is become like a town drunk.....Like what happen with Vox, its giving you the faith brain damage

    JD why do you even bother to point us to Voxy site threads,these folks aint even thinking right .They has all shut down their "prefrontal and anterior cingulate cortices" through use of such ignorant devotional methods.

    They isnt HONESTLY thinking these matters through!...They is only moving their lips! and spilling! out words that suit their faith devotion.

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  26. Off Voxys thread

    ------------------------------

    "Big Stu 7/15/10 4:57 PM
    What "problem of evil?" Omniscient (omni-everything really)
    being creates beings with free will out of love. In doing this gives up some of the omnis - remains omni-dirigent (thanks Vox)
    which he can take back any time but doesn't, again out of love.
    Created beings get themselves into a constant state of disobedience and evil emerges. Our fault, not His.

    I don't get the theodicy problem - maybe I'm missing something.

    If it's the "He could forsee everything and therefore could forsee the emergence of evil " thing - surely the "free will" part takes care of that? "

    --------------------------------------

    1,Im a father of two kids,and it is (( I! )) that "first" decided to have kids.

    2,It was "nothing" AT ALL to do with my kids free will, that my kids became created, and born.

    3,So i atleast share some responsibility in the situation.I never created perfect kids,therefore it would be immoral to threaten my kids to any eternal suffering in hell.Just because so happens my kids are imperfect.Specially when it wasnt even their free will,that first decided on the whole situation!, where they were created and born.

    4,For my kids creation, "i myself" am totally responsible .Making me jointly partly responsible also, for situations that evolve there after.

    ---------------------------------------

    Big Stu-->"I don't get the theodicy problem - maybe I'm missing something"

    -----------------------------------------

    Yes Stu...Its the devotion thing ....You are missing very "important parts of the brain" which have closed themselve down.You are thinking like a "brain damaged parent" ...who shouldnt really be trusted to be a "fair" and "just" parent

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  27. Speaking of South Koreans...

    I have several S. Korean girlfriends who I cherish dearly.

    One of them is like my half-sister we're so close. I love my Korean gals--they are wonderful!

    And my bud, Kyung-Jin Kim... he rocks! If I ever picked to learn another language I'd definitely learn some Korean so I could hang with them and speak in their own language.

    And yes, they are like 86% Christianized... but their Christianity is nothing like what most Americans think of when they think of a "Christian." It's mostly in name only. They get the title handed down from their parents, who got it from their grandparents, who received it from some missionaries way back when.

    The funny thing is my "Catholic" Korean (and Japanese friends) don't even know there is such a thing as a Pope. That's how Catholic they are... which goes to show the title of being a "Christian" is in name only.

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  29. #1. Prayer doesn't work.

    --True. At least in the supernatural sense. If used as a form of reflection and meditation... then it works insomuch as the person doing it can meditate without distraction.

    #2. Christians aren't any better than non-believers.

    --True. Christians aren't any worse either. But that says it all right there. Christianity as a revealed religion fails when it doesn't fulfill its promise of being able to fulfill the truth claims it makes for being the direct path to saving grace.

    #3. The fact that Christians are afraid not to believe.

    False--Christians just don't know any better, and the ones that do believe for different reasons. This is where I feel Loftus tends let his rhetoric to lam-blast Christians get the better of him. Certainly he over simplifies matters. There is a whole series of psychological and sociological aspects to the reasons why Christians choose to believe.

    #4. The fact that where you are born determines what religion you will be.

    True--at least 99.9% of the time. As I stated earlier, there is Mormon woman I know who adopted kids from five different countries--such as China, Ethiopia, Thailand, and so on. All of the Children were raised to be Mormon, so the beliefs are inherited and passed down through the parents who raised you.

    #5. No miracles.

    True--not a single one has been properly documented. Although the Catholic Church has tried and continues to do so.

    #6. Because how do we know which religion is right?

    Yeah--how do we know? If all make the truth claim that they are the ONLY true religion, then of ALL the religions that exist,or could possibly exist, we must conclude that only ONE could be genuinely true.

    The odds are staggering... an infinite number of religions to one... of betting incorrectly!!! Which means, you can bet your bottom dollar that no matter what--your religion is the wrong one.

    There is, however, nothing to suggest they could ALL be WRONG.

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  31. And how can you prove to me that miracles have never occurred? How did you come to this conclusion?

    Okay, so here is a stretch JD. Take the way that concluded that miracles actually exist, and argue against everything that you think. It really is that easy. Better yet, sit down on a piece of paper, and write down everything you believe about Christianity in one column. Then, in the one beside it, write down the reverse argument. See, even with a cortex missing, its that easy. The fact that you define (or you claim too) a miracle as being the fact that someone was able to get past their gayness because of Jesus makes you a very sick person. And, you are not alone in that.

    Once again, more shallow dismissal.
    The so-called problem of evil is one of the most ignorant arguments that can possibly be made against the Christian God’s existence, let alone various other conceptions of the Divine.

    I am assuming that people pray for things- like an end to violence, etc.I am sure that people out there also pray for things like fairies, magic beans, and chocolate covered rivers. Does not make it so.... And, how quick you will tell me that this is absurd.

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  32. JD, ad hominen, that's good. Stick with that. Perhaps even use it over and over again. Makes you sound, you know, smart.

    Listen, if you ever need any advice on how to continue your quest, you know, pretending to be a Christian, I may be able to help. I really don't think it is good to use this tactic to make Christians look bad. I mean, I just don't see it as beneficial to anyones cause.
    But, I do think it is at least an interesting experiment. Did you come up with this yourself?

    Anyway, since I was a Christian for 25 years, and you obviously have never been a Christian, feel free to use me as a sounding board. I can tell you what kind of attitude a "true Christian" would have toward certain atheistic claims and accusations. Just a quick hint, you need to fain guilt every now and then. You know, when you call an atheist a name, in the next response, pretend like you have "felt conviction from the Holy Spirit" and would like to ask forgiveness. I know you have no idea what I am talking about, but take it from me, it would go a long way in convincing Christians that you are actually one of them.

    Later friend.

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  33. Holy Moly, where do I begin? Well I guess I will start by saying it sure is good to see Tink back in action and to know all is well with her. And although we all missed her, her grades will justify her absence.

    If you put JD in a room with "Jason" from Friday the 13th, "Michael Myers", "Predator" and Chuck Norris, and they had to fight there way out, my money would be on JD.

    Let me try to answer every bodies question at once. My intentions weren't necessarily to argue these points but to point out that even tho they might be "true" they still don't prove anything.

    PRAYER: If you can't hear God talking to you, try reading your Bible. And then listen to your conscience God has implanted in you. God has a plan. And if we are praying that his "plan" will be done, then we wont get upset when God seems distant, or God doesn't give us what we want. He is not a Genie in a bottle and He is not here to grant you 3 wishes.

    Why does my mind race to God for help when something bad happens in my life? Why does my mind race to God to thank him when something good has happened? Atheists think that because God answers our prayers at the same rate as their prayers this proves something? Truth is I pray for my family, my church, my friends, my neighbors and every single atheist who has commented here (as well as Mr. Loftus and others) almost every day. How can anyone say God hasn't honored my prayers and protected us all because of all the prayers lifted up to him by countless Believers.

    A long time ago I used to keep a prayer list in a notebook. I ran across it recently looking for something else. But as I read all those prayer concerns I could see how God worked in all those lives I had been praying for. One guy I prayed for because of his pancreatic cancer actually died. But I could see all these years later how God took care of this guy and actually gave him the ultimate healing. Because before he died, he gave his life to Christ.

    Part 2 coming up.

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  34. Why don't Christians act better? We've had this discussion before as well. And you wont get an argument from me that the atheist isn't just as "good". (but none of us are good, unless you've never sinned)? But you can't look around too many churches on a Sunday morning and not see people whose lives haven't changed since they found Christ. Even yours truly. I may not be better than T-Vick or Nobody Cooler, but I'm better than I was.

    DOES WHERE YOU ARE BORN.... First you make the assumption that God will Judge those people unjustly. I don't. Many of those people will be judged by how their "conscience bears witness" and how they think realizing they have been created by God, from the natural implanted knowledge we all share".

    Here's a quick story, my Mother in Law is Mexican. She came up here to Ohio about 12 years ago and has lived with me and my wife for all of that time. She met 2 Filipino missionaries here in Ohio and they were the ones who led her to a personal relationship with the Lord.

    Maybe South Koreans never heard of the Pope, but Woo-Sjoo (I have no idea how to spell his name) spent a year at my parents house. He was a foreign exchange student from South Korea and he loved the Lord. And gave thanks to Him for all the blessings God had poured out on him.

    MIRACLES: God had a reason for miracles. They were to Establish His people in the Old Testament and to prove Christ in the New. Also kinda like prayer, (sorry if this sounds snotty) but shouldn't things like whether or not God answers prayers or performs miracles be left up to those who believe? God was the one who created all the laws of the universe. He has let the natural order of things to take place. But that's not to say he hasn't intervened and stepped into our lives to help. That's why I'm thankful, whether or not He bails me out of trouble. He's in control of every molecule and it's OK with me that He's in control.

    part 3 coming up

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  35. WHICH RELIGION IS THE RIGHT ONE?

    There is nothing new to this question. If you read the book of Acts you will find this out. This book basically is telling us how the Church got started. They had to preach against many false gods.

    Many others who claimed to be something great. Some of them had big followings and could perform amazing feats. They even had people trying to cover all their bases by praying to "unknown" gods. Paul was thought to be a Greek god by some. Some scoffed, some doubted, some disbelieved all together. But through it all some still heard the message and believed. And in spite of persecutions and an all out assault on these boys, the Church has survived. And it ain't going anywhere. Just like the Jewish people God has kept a remnant around until His plans are finished.

    That's all I got now, thanks for all the great comments and responses. I'm sure I missed a lot of questions. But I'm pooped out for now. Plus Mrs. Feeno has a list of crap for me to do today.

    Later, feeno

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  36. And how can you prove to me that miracles have never occurred?

    I'm sorry Tink but this little question of yours settles nothing.

    You are the unthinking, atheistic lemming who must prove a universal negative, not me. (And good luck with that).

    I'm not the buffoon stating that there are "no miracles".

    Question: If I made the statement...

    "There are no such things as little green men from outer space anywhere in the universe.", would I ever be able to prove that?

    Your (limited, stunted and completely irrelevant) thoughts on the matter, please.

    The fact that you define (or you claim to) a miracle as being the fact that someone was able to get past their gayness because of Jesus makes you a very sick person. And, you are not alone in that

    This exhibits a level of absolute cluelessness previously unheard of on this blog. Youre really "Going the Distance" here, arent you Copernicus?

    I stated (see above) that it was "the circumstances that led her to Christ" that was much more akin to a miracle than the actual conversion itself

    Not that I really care or anything, but just out of curiosity, was this willful ignorance on your part or the fact that you actually did not read what I posted.... TWICE?

    Personally, if I were you, which I am not, but if I were, I would read, and re-read what you wrote, then I would actually stop and think about it...but that's just me.


    Couple all this with the fact that you still havent explained why the existance of Evil somehow negates the existance of the Christian God in the least when the existance of evil is central to Christian doctrine.

    Can I now expect the obligatory attempt to change the subject to Young Earth Creationism? Please do. That way you can complete the Intellectually Dicey Trifecta and hit every single branch of the Stupid Tree as you freefall into the predictable atheist response known as the Rage Against the Facts argumentive technique.

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  37. Listen, if you ever need any advice on how to continue your quest, you know, pretending to be a Christian, I may be able to help

    Thanks Bob. If ever I need help in that venue, I assure you that you will be the very first imbecile that I completely ignore in that regard.

    In the spirit of detente, my Intellectual Bitch, I would extend to you the courtesy of my advice should you ever wish to join that segment of the human race that actually answers direct questions when put to them. Simply notify me through Feeno's forum here and we'll see what we can do.

    Given your predisposed opinion re: miracles, then I would posit that such an outreach would be self-defeating from your end, being that you eliminate the possiblity of your success before you even begin.

    You know, when you call an atheist a name, in the next response, pretend like you have "felt conviction from the Holy Spirit" and would like to ask forgiveness

    That's amusing. Christians are asked to present the gospel. If people then reject it, then all bets are off and you are left to your own fate.

    Can I now expect self-vicimization again and you refuse to address even this point? Never mind a couple of others? Magic 8 Ball says YES.

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  38. While Tink and Blob wonder aloud what the name of the intellectual train was that hit them, the rest of us can focus upon some specific points raised in this thread..

    First Fr. Longeneckers remarks...

    "the underlying point is that God's providence runs according to a fearful symmetry that we cannot always see. Things connect over time that we didn't expect to connect. People meet.Words are said in a casual way that bear fruit many years later. A connection here makes sense there. At one point you think it is all absurd and the suffering you are going through must be pointless. Then many years later you see how it all fit together and the Bible verse, "All thing work together for good for those who love God and who are called acccording to his purpose" suddenly becomes blazingly beautifully clear."

    Would anyone like to comment if such experiences have ever occured in their life?

    Also, we have 3 entries in a row from Feeno that raise a number of issues should any atheists be interested in something slightly more significant than defending a predetermined bias.

    Awaiting replies....

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  39. You are the unthinking, atheistic lemming who must prove a universal negative, not me. (And good luck with that).

    That is a good one, that really is. Did you get that statement from Wikipedia... Or better yet, how the 700 Club defines miracles?

    "There are no such things as little green men from outer space anywhere in the universe.", would I ever be able to prove that?

    Your (limited, stunted and completely irrelevant) thoughts on the matter, please.

    And, an omnipotent being who lives in Heaven who know every thought every second of every period of time who loves me is soooooo far off from green men in outer space? JD... You are a troll. Nothing but an online troll after our attention. Period. It is exactly how I started this- a miracle would be if God grew back your missing cortex.

    Good Luck with yourself.

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  40. @ BOB- I would encourage you to just ignore him. He is a troll... Nothing more.

    A troll is one who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

    That is him, exactly like he is.He has never learned a thing, never will.

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  41. 1,
    JD..."Also, we have 3 entries in a row from Feeno that raise a number of issues should any atheists be interested in something slightly more significant than defending a predetermined bias.

    Awaiting replies.... "

    First up let me say...Feen is a really great guy and i mean that,or else i wouldnt feel any need to step up on other athiest sites and watch his back, if i didnt honestly feel that way.

    But if im to be totally honest about it, all his three post did for me, was seem to totally match the scientific nurological test findings, that suggest devotion causes parts of the brain to shut down that deal with scepticism and decisions.

    And so if anything all Feens posts did is helped me better understand! why and how my own family might still get to sit in a abusive Christian cult,even in the year 2010.And helps explain reasons why Jim Jones managed to acheive what he did.

    I cant see that Feen gave any good answers for any questions John Lotus asked.If either you or Feen really think so,please point it out.About all i saw was the same half pie answers that skirt around the questions in avoident manner and make excuses,like i would expect from my own cult family too.

    And all i can do is i accept this is just a fact of life,and only hope the youth will be differnt.Which seems more promising.

    Unless either you or Feen feel there is some special point of Feen answer you feel was something special that should be given more thought,im just going to leave it as the "excuse" and "avoidence" that it seems to be.

    Other that two points.

    Feen said.."Also kinda like prayer, (sorry if this sounds snotty) but shouldn't things like whether or not God answers prayers or performs miracles be left up to those who believe?"

    Feen in my opinion maybe your devotion is not helping you think so well.In my opinion your devotion is even leaving you void of human morality.

    You feel faithful folks should be a law completely unto themselves?.You simply dont mind that ideas have been promoted in this world that are VERY LIKELY false ,that have now also happened to adversidly effect myself and many others .And you suggest maybe we should just mind our own business ?.

    How is this idea of yours even moral ?.

    If i wasnt so used to faithful folks type of weird idea of morality ,i might be more offended by this suggestion of yours.The fact that i have been brought up with faithful folk who also think what ever they think and do is absolutely nobody elses business,allows me to better understand why you also seem to think this way.

    You have said on here before, you wouldnt say my family was actually Christian ,and yet at the "root of matters" i still see very much the same attitude in your faithful self.And so in seeing that, i totally understand how my own cult family evolved.

    Why do you think whether prayer or miracle works is no body elses business ...And yet faithful folk can freely poke their nose in on matters of gay marriage,Murder,thieft,consuming alcohol,drugs and many other matters.

    Is your God a two faced and bigoted God?.

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  42. @ Feeno

    Miracles... What you said was interesting. But, I come back to what I was discussing before. And, you are sorta saying the same thing as me, but I take it a step further. Miracles (like faith) are subjective, and they are identified as being a miracle by the person who experienced them. For example, many mentally ill people will make sounds, which I suppose sound, similar to speaking in tongues. While some may perceive this as being associated to a religious experience, others may see it as a symptom of a neurochemical disorder that needs treatment.
    And, not just that. I believe that education and culture also contributes to the definition. I once showed an Ipod to a schizophrenic.... That was a miracle to him. The fact that that small machine could hold all that music blew his mind.

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  43. 2,

    JD said...."Would anyone like to comment if such experiences have ever occured in their life?"

    The brain can make almost anything seem to fit and connect specially if it is devoted enough on it.Jim Jones thought things connected too,he even thought he found bible verses ...Just like my own cult family do...Random stuff happen ...People meet.Words are said in a casual way ,and Jim Jones and my own cult family along with the West Bro Baptist and a whole heap others ....All talk themselve into believing its bearing some sort of fruit.

    Bloody hell ....Even Kim Jung-il manage to convince himself it all a happening thing too.

    And yet do you and Feen think its absolutely nobody elses business what he want to think and believe and do?.

    No you dont do you.How about getting honest about it.Time to get over this bullshite ! that you think your faith is nobody elses business.You only fooling yourself.Propping up your faith with some brain dead two-faced devotional delusions.

    Seem to me you faithful folk want live by a two faced type of morality .You like to tell people they going to hell ,seperate and shunn us and treat as bad.

    And yet expect us to mind our own business.

    I dont envy you.I feel pity and sadness.

    And you think this way you do ...And yet try to blame the actions and retaliations of people like Satlin on atheism ...because just so happen Stalin happen to have been a atheist too.

    If you mistreat the dog in your backyard with your two faced morality and one day it bite your leg off and rip your throat out.

    Guess you`d be saying ...see that dog was atheist ...It wasnt a retaliation to nastiness of faith....that dog acted that way because he was atheist dog

    Thats what devotion do.Shuts off parts of the brain.You dont bother to think and decide ...because you already totally devoted and your mind already made up

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  44. 1,

    JD said..."You are the unthinking, atheistic lemming who must prove a universal negative, not me. (And good luck with that).

    I'm not the buffoon stating that there are "no miracles"."

    No JD ....We do not need to keep trying to prove all the negatives.That would be utter ignorant stupidity...Which might be hard for you to grasp,being the devotional brain dead groupy type who hangs around Voxys dribblings.

    But its quite simple .If it was a smart and inteligent thing to do,to keep trying to prove negative matters ..IE ideas that show absolutely no real honest evidence, even after thousands of years.

    Our Governments might still be keen to also employ people to try and disprove ,Pink elephants and unicorns ,fairys,ghosts,ghoblins,trolls,existence of gold at the end of rainbows,celestial tea pots circling mars,father christmas,tooth fairys,warewolves,vampires,and so much other ideas of utter madness ...Of which no real good evidence has been forthcoming.

    It is stupid you demanding we prove what seems to be a negative.A negative which has been negative now for thousands of years.

    If you believe.The onus is on you to supply some good evidence.Like everyone else has to when they make suggestions.

    If scientists suggest black holes exist,they are expected to try and provide evidence.

    They dont just simply say it exists!.And then sit back and demand! others need prove that it dont exist.

    Faithful folk first suggested God exist.So its up to you to try prove it.

    ---------------------

    I wasnt going to bother.Because really it didnt seem worth it....It seemed little more than a Rowan Atkinson type skit/comedy.

    But it seems you are still dreaming you idea of miracle actually managed to prove something.

    I still dont see how..So ive decided to take up the challenge.

    You said

    1) a person that was once a lesbian is not so anymore.

    Oh goodness me what a huge miracle,i used to be a cult member now im not.I was once almost a chain smoker,now i no longer smoke at all.When i was younger i quite often went to the pub,now i no longer bother.

    People often change JD ,about many things ...Its silly, that dont prove its any miracle

    2) This coversion began in a church that she felt a strong attraction to when she would pass by it.

    JD i felt a strong attraction to stop smoking because on TV i saw the damage it often does to people lungs.Many folks see a TV program suggesting gyms are great for fitness,they join a gym .Some folks see somebody climbing Mount Everest,they happen to decide to become mountain climbers.

    Strong attractions.No miracle

    3) A chance encounter with a member of that church invited her to attend church there. The same church that she felt an attraction to out of all the possible churches in the area.

    Some folks have a chance encounter with somebody who suffered throat cancer from smoking,this helps them give up smoking.Or a chance encounter with another mountain climber,and they also decide to try mountain climbing.

    Chance encounters.Not miracles

    4) This chance encounter occured at the ungodly hour of 3:00 AM.

    JD JD JDiddly D ....Sunshine you have been living far to deep in hicksville with those country hicks ,for far far to long ...Or maybe its just delusion from devotion

    But many folks sometimes get around at 3am ...Why even your friends from hicksville might get around at 3am too ,if so happen they is out hunting coons for the coon stew ,using a spot light to shoot them up the tree.

    What makes you think its a miracle to find a lesbian out at 3am?

    Did you think lesbians are lots like vampires,except they is only able to come out in broad daylight or something?.

    Lesbians do random things sometimes ,just like some church member might too.

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  45. 2,

    If i happen to go hunting or fishing ,and so happens i meet some faithful dude out hunting or fishing or bushwalking ....What makes that any real miracle?.

    I might be traveling in my car and it breaks down,if so happens another faithful dude happens to be traveling too at the "same" time ..Why is that a miracle ? ...Why not much about chance and random?.

    I mean what about all the other many nights at 3am when maybe that lesbian was walking ...and so happens no faithful was ever around.

    Was that miracles too?.

    JD ...Why i hadnt bothered with taking up your challenge before now ...Was because it seemed not really so worth while.

    Because if this is really your type of idea of what might actually be a honest miracle.

    Its obvious how much your devotion has effected your brain and scepticism and decision making with regard to faith matters.And it become obvious it must be almost pointless to even discuss it.

    People have chance meetings all the time JD.

    Now why dont ALL the abusive faiths in this world SUDDENLY have a change of heart on one particular day ...Now that would be quite a REAL miracle .Something very far out of the ordinary.Not a reasonably regular event.

    Plenty sure do "pray" for it to happen JD!.

    Doesnt your sky daddy care about all the suffering caused by the many abusive faiths ? .Cant he make a miracle happen and have a word in all those folks ear so they change ?.

    He only does miracles with changing one or two lesbian here and there?.

    You personally see a lesbians attraction to a certain looking church and a chance meeting between two people and a change of heart as a miracle.

    But this type of thing is very very common.People are attracted to certain things, and then have a chance meeting with somebody,and try something new they already been thinking about.

    All the blinking time JD.

    You are joking right ? you didnt really considder it a actual supernatural miracle ...Its a poe ...Right?

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  46. JD - "imbecile", "Intellectual Bitch"

    That's good. Perfect!

    Now, in your next post, claim that Gods Spirit has spoken to your "heart" and that you feel the need to make it right by asking me to forgive you.

    Here's a homework assignment for you - search YouTube and see if there are any videos of Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Ted Haggard, etc. when they apologized for their transgressions. Perhaps practice looking in a mirror. If you can't work up real tears (I mean, you have to be a real Christian to do that) just splash some water in your face. Then, say something to the effect of, "bob, I am so sorry I disgraced my Lord by calling you those names. Can you please forgive me?"

    I know all of this is completely foreign to you, but it is necessary if you ever want to be viewed as a Christian, by Christians. Many of them are getting increasingly aware of the fact that being a Christian is much more than just claiming to be one.

    Try reading the bible every now and then. It is loaded with great tips on how to recognize a Christian. For instance, in John 15 (John is a book in the New Testament, which comes after the OLD Testament) it says: "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit..."

    Let me explain it to you. In this verse, the "I" is Jesus. So Jesus is the vine and you (referring to Christians, not you JD) are the branches. So their is a vital union between Jesus and his followers (Christians), just as vital as the union between the vine and the branches (this is called an analogy). And a result of this union will always show productivity, both inwardly ("spiritually") and outwardly (recognizable to other Christians).

    That is your battle JD. You have to be recognizable to other Christians, at which up till now, you have failed miserably.
    But that is understandable. I mean, how can an amoral atheistic heathen hope to fool Christians into believing that he is a Christian? Answer - you need a coach.

    Take it from me JD, this is going to be a lot of work.

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  47. Hey Ya'll!

    If you are somehow able to collect your scattered wits which, no doubt, should have been cast about willy-nilly by the awesome power of that intellectual freight train known to us as "JD", I invite you now to consider with me the true nature of the Man/Beast behind that name.

    Bob has posited that JD could, in fact, be a Hardcore Covert Atheist Terrrorist (HCAT) only posing as a Christian, cleverly using that facade as a potent device to completely discredit both the intellectual and emotional capacities and integrity of Real Christians. Could this be the case? Certainly it could be. Most certainly, indeed! All of the pieces of that puzzle are present and they all fit together into a nearly seamless explanation for the vicious and enigmatic rants that JD issues forth in this forum. So why would he enter into pugilistic discussion and debate with Atheist? Why would he take on Atheist and Atheism in such a brutal and coarse manner if he, in fact, were an Atheist himself? The answer is obvious. To affect and sway the minds of those innocents who may be quietly observing this fray from the sidelines. I mean, what rational and compassionate person could find themselves impressed by, or capable of allegiance with, the likes and kind of JD? The answer to that question, None! No, not even one rational and compassionate person could allow themselves to ally with JD and the bizzare caricature of Christianity that he represents, or, as in this twisted scenario, misrepresents.

    For myself, I think he really is a Right Wing Christian Ninga (RWCN). A very interesting blend of somewhat murky ideologies combined with peculiar personal predispositions that result in something akin to a Human/Pitbull hybrid. A creature that is somewhat dim-witted but that is unusually vicious and relentless in assaulting and attacking anything that it encounters that is perceived as a threat.

    Others have offered up more concise and laconic explanations or descriptors of JD. I believe Jeff at one point determined that he was trying to communicate with "a Wall of Stupid" referring to JD. Tink has described JD as a "Shit Storm" in the past. And although I don't think Gandolph actually used this powerful metaphor to describe JD, I'm sure he could have said, "He is a pair of swollen, festering dog balls. A blight on the body of Mankind and Christianity as well!"

    Well, whatever JD truly is we may never know. All I really know is that I love him for what he is, whatever that might be.

    SteveO

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  48. There is nothing at all to know about JD... Very simple, walks like a troll, talks like a troll, and endlessly argues (pretty much the same argument) like a troll.... To suggest that he is "a Human/Pitbull hybrid. A creature that is somewhat dim-witted but that is unusually vicious and relentless in assaulting and attacking anything that it encounters that is perceived as a threat" is way too gracious. I do not recall calling him a shit storm, I have said worse. I do believe that I likened trying to teach him, or show him the error of his ways is very similar to shovelling shit in a windstorm, which is a very Canadian way of describing futility.

    But, my final title is online troll. If he was more of a sympathetic person, I would pity him.

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  49. @Tink Bell
    Right you are! And who would know better than you what you said? When I misquoted you above I was aware that I might not be getting it right, but that you would probably correct me if I was mistaken. The general notion stuck in my mind, but I lost the details of your assesment as often I do.

    @JD
    I recommend that you not take me any more seriously than I take myself, which is to say, Not Very! But seeing that you have a great capacity to "dish it out" I would like to think that you have an equal capacity to "take it" as well. If not, my apologies as I really wouldn't want to make you feel worse than you already may.

    "I joke, I joke! I KEEDA wit chou!!!"

    Peace

    SteveO

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  50. The Important Stuff

    But on the other hand, Tink, have you ever considered what Feeno is up against in this Forum?

    Brother Feeno has very little in the way of what I would consider "support" in the comments here at his blog. If I were in his position I imagine I would appreciate anybody who was even remotely allied with my beliefs who was willing to lend a little support to my cause on ocassion. Heck, I've even considered joining in support of Feeno myself just as a matter of providing even the semblance of balance to the discussions.

    Somehow though, Feeno seems to take it all in stride. Dude always maintains his Cool and extends nothing but respect and generosity to all, albeit with a wry wit sometimes and all the better for it. But who can doubt that his heart is in the right place? For my respect and friendship somebody who's heart is kind is always consideration Numero Uno. Small details like cosmological beliefs and ideologies are always going to take a backseat to what I value most. But Hey! That's just me.

    The Reverend Sub-Cee
    On "The Important Stuff"

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  51. Nobody Cooler

    Thanks, I appreciate the kind words. I think JD is awesome, but not because I'm out numbered. I've probably commented only a few times on "Christian sites". I actually enjoyed the friendships I'd made on the Atheist sites I was on and just continue to roll with it. So I'm not lookin' for support. But I still value JD for who he is. Plus it might get a little boring around here with out him.

    As far as me taking things in stride, well thank you, I see the same things in you. Even the wit part. "RWCN" JD probably even liked that one?

    Late, feeno aka Matt Feeney

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  52. Yeah, I hope the JDster can take the crap I give him in the same spirit with which it is delivered up.

    And who knows, maybe "Right Wing Christian Ninja" will become JDiddly's by-line or sub-title or something like that. It would sure add some flash, pizzaz, and character to business cards, don't you think? Not to mention the mind boggling possibilities for a totally Bad Ass Tattoo.

    Hey JD, if you go that route just give a little credit where it's due, Okay?

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  53. Actually, Steve, I most certainly have considered Feeno. You see, the relationship that we all have with him is much different. I think that Feeno is a very exceptional type of religious guy. I think that he is intelligent enough to extract what he needs from our relationship with us, and I have never believed that he talks to us to shock, or fight with us. He dialogues with us, and that is a big difference. I am glad that there are folks out there like him, reminds me that I need to keep my preconceptions in check. There are the JD's... and there are the Feeno's.

    We offer JD help, we try to guide him in ways that he can tighten his arguments, I have tried to teach him to critique sources and have encouraged him to begin strengthening his critical thinking skills, all to no avail. Which leads me to the troll conclusion. He wants a fight, he is inflammatory, and he is not hear to jive. He wants to shock us... What would be shocking is if he could properly articulate an informed, unbiased and forward thinking argument. He is his own punchline

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  56. That is a good one, that really is. Did you get that statement from Wikipedia... Or better yet, how the 700 Club defines miracles?

    Let me make a suggestion here. Why don't you sit down with a piece of paper and write down the word ANSWER and see how full that page is. If the paper is still completely blank after an hour or so, simply go to what is known as a dictionary and look up the definition for yourself.

    What you have above here is a sentence describing my question followed by 2 things that are known as questions, not the previously discussed "answer" thingys I asked you about.

    Either prove that no miracles have occurred or modify your wording.

    Please note that this is the 3rd attempt at asking you provide an answer. Would I even bother to ask if a 4th attempt is needed? Would it be even worth the time? This is becoming quite like shovelling shit in a windstorm, which is a very Canadian way of describing futility.


    an omnipotent being who lives in Heaven who know every thought every second of every period of time who loves me is soooooo far off from green men in outer space?

    No Short Bus. You trying to prove that arguing that miracles have never happened is impossible. Mainly because neither you nor anyone else could ever claim to have ever had such knowledge. No one of course except God and I don't think that you are arguing that, are you?

    JD - "imbecile", "Intellectual Bitch" That's good. Perfect!

    Yes, thank you. I did call someone here my intellectual bitch and an imbecile. You see I had a very good teacher through this forum that typed "I Hate you" 3X along with "See you in Hell" quite recently and thus I thought strong criticism was allowed.

    That would appear to NOT to be the case here and it gives one pause to wonder what constitutes strong argumentive techniques in your mind Bob.

    Here's a homework assignment for you - search YouTube and see if there are any videos of Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Ted Haggard, etc. when they apologized for their transgressions

    And this would prove what Bob? Anyone that ever stated that becoming a Christian would fireproof you from sin was wrong in the highly likely event that you hadn't figured that out for yourself.

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  57. All of the pieces of that puzzle are present and they all fit together into a nearly seamless explanation for the vicious and enigmatic rants that JD issues forth in this forum

    Thanks for joining the discussion Steve. I was looking for another toy to chew.

    So let's just start with the fact that I called someone an "imbecile" and referred to the same person as my "intellectual bitch". Guilty as charged.

    I'm sure that you can point me toward the timestamped entry in which you criticized such statements as "I hate you I hate you I hate you I hope you die" coupled with "See you in hell".

    If you can cite such a reference that you must certainly have made, I will then promptly STFU, stop blogging here and you can have the biggest echo chamber in the entire blogosphere.

    So where did you state that Steve? Please?

    I recommend that you not take me any more seriously than I take myself, which is to say, Not Very

    And I have clearly stated recently that I don't "hate" anyone here in this forum.


    If we are getting into recommending things to one another Steve, then my recommendation to you would be to list the Top 5, no wait, let's make it easier, the Top 3, no wait, let's make it even easier, The Top 2 most interesting topics you have ever offered up for discussion on this blog, then please list them here. Because I don't remember even topic #one, nevermind #2.

    Hey JD, if you go that route just give a little credit where it's due, Okay?

    I will do that sir. But in order to fulfill your request, I would have to know what you go by these days. Steve, Sub-Cee or Mrs. Jeff.

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  58. JD - "imbecile", "Intellectual Bitch" That's good. Perfect!

    Yes, thank you. I did call someone here my intellectual bitch and an imbecile. You see I had a very good teacher through this forum that typed "I Hate you" 3X along with "See you in Hell" quite recently and thus I thought strong criticism was allowed.


    Doggonit JD, I'm trying to help you.

    I told you that my "I hate you's" was in jest. I was trying to get down to (what I perceived to be) your level - adolescent. But that was before I realized your masterful deceptive plan of masquerading as a Christian.

    And as for "see you in hell", well, that's because you are an atheist, like me. Get it? We're both going to the mythical hell... :)
    I sure hope Satan lets us sit next to each other when we get there so we can talk over old times :) (note - the smiley face indicates that I am just kidding - joking, that I don't really believe what I said).

    Just another quick bit of advice before the lesson - visit a church every now and then. I know this is not essential, for how will Christians on the web know whether or not you go to church? But it will greatly aid you. Never underestimate the value of observing your opposition in their natural environment. And take it from me, your coach, you are in desperate need of lessons in Christian behavior. When you go to church, notice how Christians greet each other, and how they even greet visitors to their church. They are, in a word, cordial.
    As an atheist, this may not come natural to you, as it does to a Christian, but remember, if you want to fool them, you have to act like them.

    I hope you studied the bible passage I refered to in my earlier post, concerning the vine and the branches. Consider that lesson #1.

    Lesson #2 - Ephesians 4:29 "Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear."
    Again, this is from the New Testament.

    This is a good one. When you pretend to be insulting to your fellow atheists, this is a sure giveaway to the Christians that you're "salvation" is suspect. Saying things like "bitch", imbecile", "buffoon", "stupid", all of these words are considered by Christians to be "unwholesome". JD, honestly, you really should have considered this before you began your quest. I mean, even a 7 year old boy in Sunday School knows not to call the heathen kid visiting his class - "bitch".

    In a nutshell, if you want to be considered a Christian, by Christians, you need to learn to speak and act like a Christian. And since Christians follow the bible (they use it as a "life guide"), they avoid obvious verbal insults.

    More later my friend.

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  59. @ BOB- Might I remind you of the shovelling shit in a windstorm reference. We have all tried to help him.... You can see that it clearly does not work. Now, he is even resorting to calling people ShortBus. I do not answer trolls. End of story. DO NOT FEED THE TROLL....

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  60. http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html

    Gimli....

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  61. tinkbell, are you sure? I mean, I was positive he was an atheist attempting to (and failing to) masquerade as a Christian. I mean, I guess he could actually be a Christian, but having been one myself, and having loads of experience with "true Christians", I was positive he was an atheist. Could he be some kind of "New Christian", some kind of hybrid mutant?

    Anyway, I haven't been here very long and probably don't have as much experience with him as you do. So, for now, I'll take your word for it and completely and totally ignore him.

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  62. That is the best way.... For months, we have said the same things over and over to him. Verbatim. For example, I read somewhere above that he wants someone to explain to him why scripture does not account as evidence. I believe, on a couple of occasions, I have told him that myself with feasible and credible sources.

    Do not take my word for it. He has his own blog. See for yourself. Most of the people on here are too nice to write him off. This is his kink, he gets off on the fight. He is not fighting to learn, he is not fighting to enhance constructive dialogue. No other conclusion other than troll.

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  63. Feeno is awesome.... Learned much from rapping with him. Wish that there were more out there like him.

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  64. I told you that my "I hate you's" was in jest

    Well check out the big brain on Bob.

    I must admit that this is something completely new to me.

    I had never before heard that simply stating the magic words [meant in jest] would magically absolve someone of writing a hate filled screed like..

    "you stuck your big fat runny nose in and dripped snot all over the place.
    Yes, I am insulting you.
    You are a jack ass of the highest order.
    You wouldn't recognize a decent, calm dialog if it sat on your face and wiggled.
    You are a short,chubby, internet bully who hides behind his 13" monochrome CRT desperately trying to offend, but your attempts have no more affect than sand chaffing my crack after a day at the beach.
    I hate you I hate you I hate you I hope you die


    Such a penance seems very slight in view of the amount of hatred that you spewed forth, but who am I to argue?

    I have a couple of questions concerning this system of absolution that you are an adherent of.

    You state that this absolved you from the "I hate you's" but does it also absolve you for wishing death upon me as well? I'm assuming that it does but I don't want to take that for granted and I would like to hear it directly from you if I may.

    Also, there was a gap of about 13 hours and 29 minutes from the time that you made you little rant until you posted that it was actually to be considered in jest.

    So is there a time limit in which one must clarify a remark as being jest related or not?

    For example, can I come back to this thread a year from now and type the words [meant in jest] and I would then be absolved? I'm a little confused here and I hope that you can clear up that particular point for me.

    Let me try this out and see how it feels.

    Bob, you are an intellectually dodgy POS who refuses to answer direct questions, relevant to the topic at hand when put to him. [meant in jest]

    Bob you couldnt argue your way out a wet paper bag if your life depended on it. [meant in jest]

    Wow! This is FUN! I never knew how liberating this could be!

    Could I then state something along the lines of "Your mother could suck-start a Harley" and expect to get away with it as long as I follow up with a "jest" clarification or is such absolution only good for certain statements and not for others?

    I'll tell you what, if my questions are a bit lengthy for you then simply post the link to the ethicist that came up with this system you adhere to and I'll read up on it on my own time.

    Thanks

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  65. So guess you arent going to take the opportunity to show how dumb I am and actually answer a question posed to you 3X Tink..

    Why am I not surprised?

    You will not feed the alleged troll, yet you will talk about me. In multiple entries after a direct question is posed to you multiple times.

    If you are going to ignore me, then may I request that you actually do so?

    Where's my buddy Steve? Are you there bro? You didnt even comment on my above Cake reference which should be a rapper's delight.

    You are disappointing me my man.

    Whenever you can get around to that reference from you I was looking for will be fine. Thanks. Dude.

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  66. No, sorry. If I want to talk about a troll, I will. You cannot censor me, nor tell me what I can and cannot do on a public forum. I call it like it is. I will never argue with you, I will never answer any question that you have for me. I will never go to your blog, I never will. You are not an alleged troll Gimli, you are a troll. Deal with it.

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  67. P.S. You do very well on your own displaying how dumb you are. You do not need me to do that Gimli.

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  68. @ BOB- Hold your ground. He is really trolling at you, we have all been there. Continue to ignore... Let him rant. Feels good doesn't it?

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  69. Must resist...M U S T R E S I S T

    :)

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  70. But I don't get it.

    Why are you 2 exempted from answering direct questions when put to you concerning statements that both of you have made?

    Wouldnt it be much easier to answer them, expose my lack of knowledge and then move on.

    Unless it is of course that to answer them truthfully would expose that you are 100% incorrect.

    So what is it?

    But then again, why start being intellectually honest now? It must be much easier to feign offense and dodge the question completely than face up to the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. It has gotten you by this far.

    Tell you what, simply preface your remarks with something like [You cannot ask me to back up this claim. You jusr can't] and then others will know what type of people they are dealing with. At least THAT would be honest.

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  71. Hold your ground. He will also claim victory either way, be ready for it.... He is already winding that one up. Always remember, if you do not engage him, he thinks he wins. If you do engage him, he thinks he wins. Better to just stick to the high ground because he is keeping the low ground so busy. And, this way you are not reduced to the level of his redundant arguments.

    And, this is what trolls do. What started as an interesting thread quickly becomes all about his trolling, and we are left with nothing but childish mudslinging. I was actually interested in what the others had to say.

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  72. So not only won't you answer a direct question Tink, you won't answer a question as to why you won't answer a direct question.

    At least youre consistent.

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  73. Well lets get back on topic:

    #1. Prayer doesn't work.

    Well, does it or doesn't it?

    feeno, is this a direct quote from John? I mean, it is an odd statement. Prayer does "work" for some, in that they perhaps "feel better" after they have prayed. I think that is a fact. Some people, perhaps many people who hold religious / spiritual beliefs, believe that prayer is a form of communication with the higher power they believe in. And they experience an emotional shift during or after praying. So, in that sense, prayer does work. I think John would agree with that.

    When I was a believer, prayer did work, in that the act of praying made me "feel good". But, looking back now, I can not point to a single "answered" prayer. Not one time in 25 years as a believer did I experience what could even remotely be considered a "supernatural answer" to my prayer.

    And on top of that, in all my years of attending church and fellowshipping with other believers, not once did I ever witness, or hear first hand from a Christian friend, that their experience with prayer resulted in an obvious supernatural answer.

    And on top of that, in the past 10 years as an atheist, I have not heard one single first hand account from any of my Christian friends or associates, that indicates any of them have experienced themselves, or witnessed others experiencing an obvious supernatural answer to prayer.

    And on top of that, my girlfriend of five years, who is a regular church going Christian, has not relayed to me a single obvious supernatural answer to prayer that she, or anyone in her church has experienced.

    So, if a Christian, any Christian, likes to use "answered prayer" as evidence that God exists, or that Christianity is true, isn't it perfectly reasonable for me, or John Loftus, to use the complete lack of answered prayer that we have experienced, as a good reason for our departure of the faith?

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  74. I have explicitly stated- I DO NOT FEED TROLLS... I do not argue with them, I do not answer their questions, and I will keep reminding all those involved how trolling completely derails any type of conversation that occurred before on the thread.

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  75. Yes, I know. That was kinda what everyone was getting at before the trolling started. Prayers, miracles become defined as such in the eyes of the person who is subjectively experiencing them. Like I said earlier, I showed an Ipod to a schizophrenic gentlemen who thought the fact that this tiny machine could hold all of the music was a miracle. It is not evidence.... Faith is not evidence.

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  76. @JD

    Kindly refer to me as Mrs. Jeff from now on. I kinda like the sound of that, has a nice *ring* to it, know what I mean? If it don't bother Jeff that is. Wait a minute, wait just a doggone minute...On second thought, Fuck Him, from now on I'm Mrs. Jeff whether Jeff likes it or not.

    Okay, now that's settled so let's move on.

    You asked about what Topics I have offered up for discussion here. That's Silly, JD! This isn't my blog, so it's not my job to offer up Topics for discussion. That's Feeno's job, and he's doing a pretty darn good job of it, I might add.

    You said, "Thanks for joining the discussion Steve. I was looking for another toy to chew."
    Hey there Big Boy, chew away! And don't worry about what Jeff thinks, I'm Mrs. Jeff in name only.

    And finally, I couldn't find the "cake reference", but if I had my way you could have your cake and eat it too!

    Chew Away, Big Boy, Chew Away!

    Mrs. Jeff

    The Jokester Formerly known as SteveO, The Reverend Sub-Cee, Non-Cooler Schuler, The Sub-Cool One, etc...

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  77. from now on I'm Mrs. Jeff whether Jeff likes it or not

    Oh Carpe DIEM Steve! While I might refer to you as Mrs. Jeff from time to time, your clear cut ability to make a decision and answer a direct question would indicate that youre nobody's bitch pal. Too bad Bob can't say the same though.

    You asked about what Topics I have offered up for discussion here. That's Silly, JD! This isn't my blog, so it's not my job to offer up Topics for discussion

    So I guess the answer is that you cannot offer up a single example. No not one.

    While on the last thread alone I offered up a supposed link between militant atheism and Asperger's Syndrome, and that's just off the top of my head.

    Let's lower the bar a little and I would ask you to provide the most thought provoking statement you have ever made in this forum. Forget offering up a topic. We both know thats hopeless.

    Can I also forget about the timestamped entry of yours in which you criticized a fellow practicioner of your non-theistic religion for writing hateful screeds or is it a case that you just havent gotten around to it yet?

    I would have made that entry #1 on my next reply....but that's just me. Whenever you get around to it would be fine MJ.

    I couldn't find the "cake reference"

    Here it is. Link

    Check out the comments down below.

    "HES GOING THE DISTANCE!!!!!! I scream that in public places it is great fun. hhahahaha. as long as you do not mind everyone looking at you like your mentally insane" HA!

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  78. Bob said..."And as for "see you in hell", well, that's because you are an atheist, like me. Get it? We're both going to the mythical hell... :)
    I sure hope Satan lets us sit next to each other when we get there so we can talk over old times :) (note - the smiley face indicates that I am just kidding - joking, that I don't really believe what I said)."

    Well i do hope Rowan Atkinson will sit at our table too ,Bob :)

    And i think you are correct,in any real honesty, everyones pretty much atheist.Just because i might read a book or two on rugby, or go to watch a few games,dont make me any rugby player.

    And so if christianity does nothing to change people,why bother.Why not simply admit being human.

    All joining the faith seem to do,is feed people some bigoted ideas.(My opinion/observation)

    Oh and cause more strife and division.

    Steve sub coolio says...."You said, "Thanks for joining the discussion Steve. I was looking for another toy to chew."
    Hey there Big Boy, chew away!"

    Steveo ...prepare yourself, to be chomped and chewed by a Geriatric Gummmy Shark :)

    Now i added the Smily face too, JD !.So im jest jesting.Your alright in my books,although i do noticed you seem to often mostly prefer to pick on those you maybe feel you might be able to dominate.

    Feel free to take out your frustrations more on me anytime you feel like it JD .I grew up dealing with all the harsh christian homies.They taught me how to take plenty of kicks in the teeth,and yet come up still smiling and even more cheeky.

    By the way everyone decides not to bother to answer points other people make, sometimes.You do .Feen Does .I do also.

    It dont mean any debate has been won.I dont think ive proved prayer dont work here on this blog,but i havent seen any good evidence ever presented to suggest that it actually does either.

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  79. JD...."While on the last thread alone I offered up a supposed link between militant atheism and Asperger's Syndrome, and that's just off the top of my head."

    Off the top of you head,you got that bit right JD.Off your head and Off your rocker!!

    Thought you was gleefully ready to be throwing a mortarboad high in the air.When all the while it was still only putting on a dunce cap http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/Dunce_Cap.jpg


    "I offered up a supposed link"

    Yeah offered up the supposed.Glad you mentioned it was only about the "supposed".Voxys supposedness.Just like faith and religion - all about the "supposed" factor.

    Faithscience...We dont yet know where we might go after death or might have come from or how the universe began = ohh "suppose" we better guess = God-did-it

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