Monday, August 9, 2010

The Celtics suck

Can we live at peace with all men? Here's a quote from my favorite movie "The Outlaw Josey Wales" where Josey (Clint Eastwood) says to Ten Bears "Governments don't live together people live together..." I know it's just a movie but these few words say quite a bit. I think when we meet a stranger we tend to like them for whatever reason? Maybe that reason or reasons are because we don't know if that person is a liberal or a conservative. A Christian, Jew, Muslim or Atheist. Whether they like the Lakers or Celtics.

If an Atheist likes(?) or can at least put up with Believers and live in peace with them, that is a good thing. But for the Christian to put up with others including Atheists that should be imperative. Now most of us have a circle of people we all know and care about. And some of those people are on our list because were related to them or we've just gotten to know them over time, and although they might be different than us and maybe not have the same outlook on life as we do, we still care about them... because they are in "our" circle. But it's not always so easy to care about those people who are way different than we are when they aren't in our circle.

But whether someone is inside or outside our circle it shouldn't matter to the the Believer. Romans 12:18 "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men". This is probably a little easier with those inside our circle? But sometimes those we are closest to are the ones we are the least peaceable towards because the people we are the closest with can actually "hurt" us the most. But how do those people who hurt us see the Lord in a Believer's life if we can't maintain peace? Hebrews 12:14 "Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

Even tho I ignore some of your questions and don't always say the kindest things, you all are in my circle. Peace multiplied. feeno

18 comments:

  1. I think the ultimate test of a group is how it acts in the majority, or more accurately, when wielding power. Atheists in America have been legislatively silent, so it's not tough for them to have a great record of tolerance. On the other end, Christians wielded power so long in Western civilization that you can flip to a random page in a history book and find an example of their abuses.

    What I wonder is: will atheists be any less cruel if they wield power? I think we can save time and just say "Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, blah blah blah."

    Conclusion: there's little difference between Christians and Atheists. That isn't saying much for Christians, or Atheists who believe they are better for not believing.

    Regarding how we hurt people closest to us: I think intimacy and hate are very closely linked. I have often believed you can't hate someone until you really get to know them. Before that, it's just prejudice.

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  2. You know what I like about you Feeno? From the very first posts I read of yours at "Christianity Debunked" I had the sense that you were a guy that was really all about Peace, Love, and Understanding, who didn't take himself Too seriously, and who had a great sense of humour. These are characteristics that I find appealing whatever a person's ideological affiliation. In my experience these characteristics have very little to do with whether or not a person identifies as a Theist or Atheist, or in my case as agnostic. In my own "conditioning" as a youngster I was very much influenced by the variety of Christian upbringing that I received. While I am no longer a Believer, I am sure that at some very deep levels of my mind the influence of my religious past is inextrcably ingrained in my character. It is beyond the power of my rational mind to "know" just what all that invloves or how I might be different if I had been raised otherwise.

    No big conclusions here. Just something I think about a bit.

    None Cooler
    ('Ceptin Maybe The Feenster!)

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  3. Nice thoughts, Feeno. Yer crew here seems generally well-behaved, and this forum seems like a good place for agreeing to disagree.

    I know Christians who are peaceful (you seem to fall into this category) and Christians who are militant. (My father believes earnestly that we are literally fighting Satan in Irag.) There are atheists who are peaceful (the ones I like) and atheists who are 'strident' and militant. (They kind of bore me.)

    One of the many reasons I moved away from Christianity is that i realized that Christianity does NOT, in fact, bestow any particular set of characteristics or outlooks onto believers. Not one believer, Blood of the Lamb notwithstanding, really goes forth and sins no more. Anecdotes abound regarding personal shifts in attitude, but these crop up in every faith, and in the end people are just people.

    So I try to hang around the nice ones. Be thankful that you have a peaceful disposition: for lack of a better term, it really is a blessing, and you'll probably live longer for it.

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  4. Yes, Feeno is a great example of a Christian. I wish that I knew more like him. I wish that I knew more that I could sit down with, and just talk. Respect their beliefs, have them respect mine. It is a sad state of affairs in this world when you wish for that. It is really hard to find people to agree to disagree with. Feeno is good for that.

    I agree with Ginx. Atheists are pretty silent, and I could argue that this is a result of political apathy. In some ways, there really is not much difference between Christians and Atheists, like Ginx said. Maybe, there is a little more of an "uppity" nature to Atheists because they have a tendency to be educated (statistically proven), and this comes with the territory.

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  5. Ginx said "What I wonder is: will atheists be any less cruel if they wield power? I think we can save time and just say "Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, blah blah blah."

    No Ginx i didnt notice atheists do become psycholgically disturbed leaders of tyranny .You have put forward a group of tyranic leaders as being connected to being a good cross section of atheists, rather than being connected to tyranic psychologically disturbed leaders! who also so happen to be atheist.

    To me this seems to be a false connection.


    Ginx said.."Conclusion: there's little difference between Christians and Atheists. That isn't saying much for Christians, or Atheists who believe they are better for not believing."

    I disagree .

    There is actually a very big difference.Faithful folk "do" follow faith books/indoctrination that "do" suggest a need to treat other humans badly/cruely .Hense why they often did so, it didnt just happen for no reason.There is faith indoctrination within these books ,which make these type suggestions which the faithful then follow.

    What indoctrination do atheist follow that suggest any need to treat people badly/cruely ? .What atheist indoctrination suggest atheists should become tyranic leaders like Stalin ,Pol Pot etc ?.

    There is no such thing!.And so Pol Pot or Stalin is not a good cross section of what atheism delivers.

    Where as the seperation and shunning devisive attitudes displayed by very many faiths ,is! a very good cross section display of the attitude very often! traditionally delivered by faith groups through their reading these faith books that contain so much abusive attitudes.

    Therefore in my "opinion" you are wrong, there is some very big differences between faithful and atheist.


    Ginx said.."Regarding how we hurt people closest to us: I think intimacy and hate are very closely linked. I have often believed you can't hate someone until you really get to know them. Before that, it's just prejudice."

    That may be the case in some instances .

    But still it dont take away from the connection! between faith and faith books and the faith followings that was the CAUSE of why some folk treated people badly.

    You cant tell me my family seperate because of "intimacy and hate are very closely linked"

    I know mt family to well, and i know that suggestion would be bullshite .

    My family seperate only because of "faith following".Many Taliban blow themselves up killing Americans ,because of "faith following" and belief in folks from the USA being the infidels .When your wifes Jewish family shun you , its got little to do with ->"intimacy and hate are very closely linked" and everything! to do with the bigotry inposed by "faith followings".

    Dont get me wrong im not suggesting you are not welcome to your own opinion Ginx .And i couldnt care less if you disagree.

    As an atheist , im no longer even interested in a need of belonging to churches/group who all need all agree.

    Im just pointing out i personally dont buy into it, and if im understanding you properly, then i dont agree with you.

    Ginx said "What I wonder is: will atheists be any less cruel if they wield power? I think we can save time and just say "Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, blah blah blah."

    New Zealand is pretty much atheist rule .It has been pretty much atheist rule now for very many many years ,bar a few unlucky punters like myself being born into the very few remenant controling faith groups that still remain.

    We dont! have any Stalin or Pol Pots emerging here Ginxs.

    Faithful folks will impose any idea on you if they think they possibly can do .Including the unfounded ideas, that mere atheism is supposedly whats responsible for the mentally disturbed tryrants like Stalin and Pol Pot .

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  6. Careful on that high-horse, gandy. You might fall off on the road to Damascus.

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  7. Hey Ginx ,i rode horse everyday for many years,when i was a musterer on sheep and cattle stations.So yeah ,i`ll be watching my fall.

    Your horseride is surrounded by faith evangelism, and so carrys the great weight of war and costly bombs Ginx.Your future relys in big part on faith!, and whether the U.S.A faithful folk decide to outlaw things such as stem cell research etc.

    Your childrens knowledge may depend lots on what faith groups allow and dont allow to be taught in schools.

    Like i said you are welcome! to the opinion things are the same with wielding power .

    I was just saying i dont really agree with you.

    And you as an "atheist" dont even mind my personal difference of opinion so much right?.Just as you as an atheist maybe might not yourself agree with abortion ,but you still wouldnt expect everyone has the same situation and NEED the same life you do right?.

    If you feel sure all folks do wield power the same way ,then like i said i understand your opinion.

    No harm done in me disagreeing though huh ?.

    Peace Ginx !

    gandy

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  8. I just find such zealotry to be typical of religion, not a lack of religion. Some of the most ardent and militant opponents of religion turn to it eventually, perhaps because harboring so much hate is exhausting and religion provides the means of tempering intolerance with positive qualities.

    I don't think all people are the same, but I know atheism does not imbue one with anything a religious person lacks. As more people become atheists, I'm sure it will become more apparent that religion was not corrupting humanity, but rather that humanity is corrupt and religion had little to do with making us better or worse.

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  9. Ginx said.."I just find such zealotry to be typical of religion, not a lack of religion. Some of the most ardent and militant opponents of religion turn to it eventually, perhaps because harboring so much hate is exhausting and religion provides the means of tempering intolerance with positive qualities."

    Ginx, yeah i understand .And i take your point.Infact i`ll even go further and simply accept !, quite likely i do have interests in the matters of religion , that should really be considered unhealthy.Unhealthy for me anyway.I already know this.But because of religion that was forced upon me through birth, i live a life that has now become lots like living a life of the living dead anyway.

    Some folks who have/had cancer scares, maybe do have a rather unhealthy ! interest in the matter of dieing and death too.They might be far better off health wise!,to try their best to somehow learn to "meditate" on other better things.

    But it dont mean cancers not a big problem that hopefully more people will become aware of and professors and scientist etc can then work on finding new cures.

    Its most likely not so "healthy" for many Muslim women to bother dwelling to much on matters of Islam and freedom of Muslim women not to be "made" to need to wear the burka .Fighting it will most likely only kill them one way or the other,through being stoned to death! or through being driven totally insane !.

    I know how the forceful nature of religion can tend to drive people mad.And who knows you may be right Ginx,maybe there will come a day when in such dispair i too will turn back to some liberal type religion as a way to try and find some sort of peace and relief.

    But will that help prove humanity needs religion?.Will it prove religion is a good thing?.Will it prove i was wrong about religion?.

    Or will it prove i was forced into a corner and though at heart i knew it wrong , i took any pill i could find to dull my pain.Found liberal religion as a way to try as best i can,replace my longing for family that a far less flavour of religion had already taken away.

    So folks get adicted to drugs Ginx like morphene , and to help ease the pain of their adition they go on a doctor prescribed drug called methadone ....Does this make methadone to be something humanity really needs Ginx ?.Like liberal faith

    Im sure a number of Muslim turn to Christianity to try and find a way to forgive and forget that what they experienced with Islam.

    But does that prove Islam wrong and Christianity right Ginx?.

    If you knew me well Ginx you would know at heart im pretty much the "live and let live" type.

    Im quite happy to let faithful folk live ,im not out to look to find ways to totally ban their faith.I even feel their is some good cultural value in religion.

    But you even ask our friend Feeno a liberal Christian ,what actual honest "action" his liberal church has taken to see that changes get made so that i have more rights to the "live and let live" laws that he himself wouldnt like to lose .And i bet all you`ll ever hear is words, and suggestions of feeling sorry about my situation i experienced.

    I have never been the type to want or even enjoy people feeling sorry for me and my situation Ginx.Im not after pity , i hate being pityied ,im just after some "honest action" and change that is long overdue.

    But these faithful folks like there rights to religion , and so people like me and many other born into the less liberal faiths , must need to be the ones to pay the price for the rights of liberals to have their freedom of faith.

    Maybe i should shut up Ginx ...Maybe i should back down ...admit im in a corner with no escape and so try and find some solice in some more liberal faith as a way to dull the pain.

    But will that "honestly" make religion anymore of a good thing? . Or is it simply much more about trying to make the best i can, out of a bad situation that exists ?.

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  10. Ginx said.." Some of the most ardent and militant opponents of religion turn to it eventually, perhaps because harboring so much hate is exhausting and religion provides the means of tempering intolerance with positive qualities."


    Yes some famous atheists turned back to faith .Does this suggest that they honestly knew that Gods actually exist ? ,or does it maybe better prove! that the man made threats of hell do honestly exist! and having become so deeply engrained into our thoughts and lives, that they get the best of people over time,making them fall back on some type of pascal wager ?.

    -----------------------------

    An Inuit hunter asked the local missionary priest: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the priest, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Inuit earnestly, "did you tell me?" ~Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek

    Ginx if the Inuit turned toward faith , does this best prove.

    1,God exists

    2,or the threats of hell exists

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  11. Ginx i imagine to an native Inuit of ancient times, his family would have really been a very important part of his survival.It was part of his wealth, and was worth far much more than even any amount of money.

    Free wheeling Frank of the Hells Angels gang in the U.S.A once said ,drugs can get you through times of no money whilst money cannot get you through times of no drugs.

    Now im not interested in drugs.But i know very well family can be lots like a drug , and help you through tough times, even if you have no money, no house, are sick ,broken ,have forces working against you etc etc. ...And money cant ever buy you any family.

    I also know very well about the very divisive nature of religion .Very often faiths they all used the old tried and trusted "divide and rule all" plan.

    So once part of the family became converted to a particular faith ,there was always new rules "imposed" .I dont care how liberal somebody might want to argue maybe their particular faith is. Most often they still lay down some special rules and regulations, and their agenda almost always is to try to convert others to their belief also.Even if its a liberal faith ,these liberal faiths still tend to impose some sort of higher than thou attitude among followers.It dont really help family "relationships" , where not all of the family belong to the faith.It causes "division" soon enough.

    Im not suggesting society dont already have these problems , im just saying how does having this religiously imposed on us "ALSO" be supposed to help us any?.And after faiths have always had such big influences on our societys so long,so should we really be so surprised if these type attitudes ALSO exist in our society now anyway?.

    Once so many members of the Inuit`s family converted ,the writing was really on the wall ! , join also! or find life terribly more difficult.Find your possibility of survival impaired .

    The converted family wasnt about to suffer any !,now they were in the company of their new faith group, "who would also make sure they didnt!".I also experience this! .My cult family make sure to help anyone who aint a ex member! of their cult ,just to make themselves look wonderful ! in the eyes of society at large .

    Yeah i bet this angered a few Inuit.I bet a number of them became "Some of the most ardent and militant opponents of religion ".

    But were these Inuit so wrong Ginx ?.

    That Some of these most ardent and militant Inuit opponents of religion finally! most likely later gave in ! and "turn to it eventually" because "harboring so much hate is exhausting ".

    Mean that honestly "religion provides the means of tempering intolerance with positive qualities" ?.

    Or was it maybe much more about what "other choice" did they really have left?.Specially WHEN OTHER FOLK IN SOCIETY start backing the particular faith group up, and suggesting maybe they provide positive qualitys for tempering intolerence.Just saying this is what happens.


    I am far luckier and better off than most Iniut are that live very tough lives ,and for that i am honestly thankful.

    But still even in my "lucky country" life has still taught me about the many great importances of family , importances that are often hard to actually replace no matter how hard you try and what good people you meet.

    It is this factor that has helped me better understand the "anger" of many Native folks (first nation) who also found their native traditions and inheritances stolen and trashed.And by inheritances im not talking about money.There is much else other! than money that creates a wealth that is hard to replace.And its often not until its lost that one fully understands the imposible feeling that creates.

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  12. The lady doth protest too much, methinks...

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  13. L.o.L ...Yeah well i suppose its easy to simply throw low down gutless insults online when you are a arse-licker that has little better arguments to offer.

    But even the fact you think atheism equals mentally disturbed tyrant leaders ,shows even if you are educated it aint done you much good,because it seems you "dont think" and are still bloody ignorant as.

    Simply suggesting "methinks" proves f**k all Ginx.

    Are you another Voxy ? ...Obviously educated but still thick as pig shit !

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  14. Ginx..."What I wonder is: will atheists be any less cruel if they wield power? I think we can save time and just say "Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, blah blah blah."

    Conclusion: there's little difference between Christians and Atheists. That isn't saying much for Christians, or Atheists who believe they are better for not believing."

    Translation : I got no evidence to back it up.Im educated but still "dont think".But trust me im great at arse-licking

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  15. I'm flattered at being the arse-licker, not the arsehole. I always thought of myself as a giver, not a taker.

    Anyway... I'm pretty sure I didn't say atheists were "mentally disturbed tyrant leaders," I just pointed out the fact that simply because one is atheist does nothing to distinguish oneself from Christians. Clearly being atheist doesn't mean you have reading comprehension skills, and it certinaly does not suggest an understanding of the concept of "brevity."

    Even if religion disappeared in a puff of magical smoke (an atheist miracle, perhaps), there would still be a lot of work to do because there is plenty of ignorance that exists independent of religion.

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  16. Ginx.."I'm flattered at being the arse-licker, not the arsehole."

    Oh sorry i forgot.In my opinion ive finally come to the conclusion most likely you are a f**king arsehole too.And most likely one who had his arse wiped most his life as well.Hense why your a freak who so good at gutless "cheap shots".
    Understand better now Hmmm ?

    Oh and by the way you still did absolutely nothing to connect atheist to tyrants.So much for the education your mummy and daddy most likely paid for.What a waste !.

    "there would still be a lot of work to do because there is plenty of ignorance that exists independent of religion."

    Oh i see..And that would be the end of the world having things to work out.... so that why places like sweden doing pretty ok .Of couse smart guys like you think living in a country full of religious bigots and then having other Muslim bigot come bomb you! is better.Pity one didnt land a bomb on your head ,id say its about what it might take! to knock some real good sense in.Hmmm? ...You might then learn a little why you have these things happening around you to your country specially.When most everywhere else dont have the same shit happening to them.

    Belated reply i know .But hey i been busy elswhere.

    Pity we didnt live a little closer.Id be real f**king keen to come dicuss some stuff in person with you Ginx.

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  17. Mind you the threat of nuclear bomb coming that maybe aint so far off now, might help you realize how much sooner folks should maybe have learned a few tricks.And why arse-licking aint really always such a handy dandy thing to do.hmmm

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