Wednesday, August 4, 2010

The Truth shall set you free

I want you all to know I'm only writing this for you. God certainly doesn't need me to "have His back". I'm not one of those people who think I need to prove God. Someone once said "God is there, and He is not silent". And I agree. And I usually don't like these types of debates. I don't think they get us anywhere? But I feel your deserving of some response from our last thread.

For atheism to be true we all are here by accident. And the complexity and design of the universe is an amazing coincidence. Time and space came from nothing. Matter and energy came from nothing. Even with all the resources readily available, money, laboratories, Universities and supposedly the brightest and geekiest scientists in the world no one has ever produced one single living cell.

If atheism is true then the 2nd law of thermodynamics (everything is winding/breaking down over time) takes a vacation when bad things evolve to good. And we evolved from another life form or species with out the same number of chromosomes? Why don't you worry that your dog may impregnate your neighbors cat or your pet hamster? If it takes millions of years for a small insect to develop a defense system to combat it's stalker, why wasn't it extinct after about 2 weeks on Earth?

No matter what what era we lived in, and no matter what geographic area, and no matter what kind of people were living then, we worshiped some sort of deity. And established a morale code. They felt empathy, shame, compassion, love, hatred and guilt.

We all have a mind like no other species. We can think, create and reason. we have instincts and emotions and the unique ability to communicate. And most of us use that ability to talk with God.

Notice I didn't mention prayer, Jesus, Holy Spirit, the Bible, changed lives, my relationship with the Lord, comfort, peace and the Church. Those things are just for Believers. But when you start with the thought process (presupposition) there is no God, then you must find reasons why "there is no God". And yes, Christians do the same thing. That's why I said "I really don't like these types of debates and they usually go nowhere".

That is also why I said "proof" or "truth" has little to do with peoples conversions or de-conversions. Proof is subjective and can change and we can all find facts to support our arguments.

Besides it all boils down to: what are we gonna do about Jesus?

"cause there is only one truth. I am the Way the Truth and the Life...

Late, feeno

38 comments:

  1. Words of Wisdom, 孟湖聿軒, words of wisdom...

    SteveO

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  2. Rather than spending an hour on another long response that will most likely be ignored...again, I will just submit a few thoughts:

    1 - You god has never shown up. Please blame him for my inability to give him even a little credit for the natural universe that I experience and observe around me.

    2 - We don't know what happened "in the beginning". Science can speculate, perhaps make some educated guesses. Perhaps, sometime in the distant future, long after we are gone, science will find the evidence it needs to prove that a god created the universe, or prove that "in the beginning", it was an unguided natural occurrence. But for now, all we can do is speculate.

    3 - Do some reading on biological evolution and thermodynamics in actual scientific books, rather than Christian apologetics books. Heck, just google "biological evolution" and "2nd law of thermodynamics", but you have to avoid the boatloads of Christian pseudoscience websites, because...(see #4 below)

    4 - Christianity (most Christians) begin with the presupposition that "God did it". They believe that before they examine one single bit of evidence. Matter of fact, most Christians spend their entire lives believing "God did it" and they never seek out scientific confirmation that what they believe is true.
    This is why Christianity does not discover. It tries to mold the present to conform to the past and tries to mold the past to conform to what it presently believes. It begins with what it believes to be true and tries to find evidence to support what it already believes to be true and ignores any evidence that indicates that what it believes, may be incorrect.

    Science begins with an hypothesis. It doesn't care whether that hypothesis is proven true or false. All it cares about is establishing facts based on evidence.

    feen - "Besides it all boils down to: what are we gonna do about Jesus?"

    I'll tell you what I am going to do about Jesus. I am going to approach him the same way I would approach any claim of authenticity, whether historical, supernatural - I will approach Jesus skeptically.

    If there is little evidence that Jesus even existed ( I didn't say NO evidence, yet)...

    If there is NO evidence (outside of some 2,000 year old writings) that Jesus was a god or had supernatural powers...

    If there is NO evidence that the Jesus of the bible is alive today and works mysteriously in the lives of his modern followers...

    Then the only way I could "do" anything "about Jesus" would be for me to suspend my reasoning ability, let my emotions take over, and just believe.

    That's what you did. And that's what I did some 35 years ago.

    No thanks.

    As it says in the gospel of John - "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."...(from your religious beliefs).

    Good luck with those Chinese feen.

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  3. Universities and supposedly the brightest and geekiest scientists in the world no one has ever produced one single living cell.

    Not true. Scientists in Canada have done this. I normally would not refer to my own blog, but I remember posting this because I was so excited by it. Here is the link for you to see yourself.

    http://tinkbell13-whyiamatheist.blogspot.com/2010/05/apparently-god-is-not-only-being.html

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  4. TB 13

    Tink, I think your geeks up north are just as smart as our geeks down here. And there even one up on us when it comes to this issue. But here's a couple quotes from the link your site took me too. Dr. Wiess says "Even tho the man-made DNA needed an already living cell to start working..." But I like this one a little better "Although this initial step is more a re-creation of existing life." You can still feel pride in Canada, after all they kicked our ass in hockey.

    TVick, I'm only trying to free your mind, but I can only show you the door. Your the one who has to walk through it.

    bobaloo, Did my wife put you up to saying that? Anyways brotha my bad.

    @#1. I remember my Pastor preached one Sunday morning where during the entire sermon he displayed the back of a quilt his wife knitted for him. He talked about how confusing, difficult and jumbled our lives can get. And nowhere do we see God. The back of that quilt looked like a jumbled mess. He said sometimes his life was like the back of that quilt, a confusing mess and he couldn't make sense out of it. Then he went on to say how we need to remember how God is control and we don't always know what He is doing behind the scenes for us. Then of course at the end of his sermon he turned the quilt around to display a beautiful piece of art.

    Be right back-Jack

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  5. bob

    I'm not saying your life is messy, I'm saying even a Pastor goes through times where he doesn't feel the presence of God. I too have been there.

    @#2. If we could only see the future?

    @#3. Something is contradictory, don't you think?

    @#4. I agree for the most part.

    About that Chinese thing... weird, and I'd like to know how "nobody cooler" has Chinese key pads?

    Late, feen

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  6. Wow, what a terrific post! If only because you have cleared the ground upon which clear thinking can now begin. I would encourage you to actually seek the answers to the questions you've posed. But I'll give you some starts and nudges.

    For lack of a better method, point-by-point and here we go!

    "For atheism to be true we all are here by accident."
    Yes. A glorious, dangerous, beautiful, tenuous, terrifying and astounding accident. "Accident," of course, is a loaded word. I posted a link to a lecture by astronomer and physicist Lawrence Krauss here recently; this is my favorite pull-quote from it …

    "The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time … including life."

    Our sense of what is probable or even possible is hopelessly constricted by our physical and temporal scale. We are waaaaay out of our element when talking about galaxies or quarks, nanoseconds or "billions of years" or infinity. (Although believers are more than eager to make all sorts of positive claims about infinity and the stake they have in it.) If you haven't been alive since the beginning of time, you can't make claims about what couldn't possibly have happened naturally since the beginning of time. But you CAN test and extrapolate. Complexity accrues over time, this has been repeatedly established and verified. Given vast stretches of time, truly staggering complexity can accrue.

    "… no one has ever produced one single living cell."
    So true. Also true: no one ever flew across the Atlantic Ocean, until they did.

    "If atheism is true then the 2nd law of thermodynamics … takes a vacation when bad things evolve to good."
    Well, I think we're both out of our element here, but my understanding is that the 2LT applies to isolated systems, not the universe as a whole. And the earth is not an isolated system; we have a big battery called the sun constantly flooding it with energy, driving photosynthesis and weather and sustaining life. Life itself is an eddy in the grand river of entropy.

    "And we evolved from another life form or species with out the same number of chromosomes?"
    As Bob suggested, maybe you should do some real reading? In lieu of that, here's a very short (4:23) answer, from a devout Christian no less, to that specific question; it's quite simple and lovely. (Hint: two chromosomes fused into one, and we found exactly where; chromosome #2)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk

    "Why don't you worry that your dog may impregnate your neighbors cat or your pet hamster?"
    >blushes<
    It is my sincere hope that one day you come to understand just how ridiculous that particular question is.

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  7. "If it takes millions of years for a small insect to develop a defense system to combat it's stalker, why wasn't it extinct after about 2 weeks on Earth?"
    There is a mechanism/principle in evolutionary theory called the Arms Race, in which predators and prey evolve in tandem; better mice and mousetraps, alternately, as it were. You can read all about it in Dawkins' Blind Watchmaker. But only if you actually want the answer to the question.

    "We all have a mind like no other species. We can think, create and reason. we have instincts and emotions and the unique ability to communicate."
    Agreed. This thing we call consciousness, a by-product of our big brains, makes us unique among species. Many species communicate; birds, elephants, coyotes, other primates. Some species appear to be capable of simple spatial reasoning. We're just really really good at it. (Have you seen the one where the bird figures out how to raise the water level in a glass - by dropping stones in it - to access a grub?)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7cw_9AT5hg

    "And most of us use that ability to talk with God."
    No. MANY of us BELIEVE that we're using an ability to talk to God. That internal conversation is a natural function of human consciousness, which is produced by our big and complicated brains.

    "No matter what what era we lived in, and no matter what geographic area, and no matter what kind of people were living then, we worshiped some sort of deity."
    vs.
    "Besides … what are we gonna do about Jesus?"
    It seems to me that these two statement effectively cancel one another. Why do we "all" worship "some sort of deity" if Jesus is so obviously the only right answer? More importantly, why do denizens of distant lands never seem to be aware of Jesus until His human missionaries arrive? Why do we have to do anything about Jesus if it's so obviously natural to just worship some deity? And if we are NOT an "accident," but rather the most special and precious elements of creation, why are we such tiny tiny backwater flecks against a universe whose scale we are still trying to grasp?

    In summary, I'll second Bob again. Religion doesn't go forward or learn anything, it seeks only to sustain its original premises. Science and the process of discovery make advances … also, sometimes, errors. But always advances that DISPLACE ideas that don't work, or that don't work as well as what's replacing them. A commenter named PapaLinton said it so well elsewhere that I cut and pasted it, and will share it here:

    "Science and reason are substitutive and eliminative: new ideas replace old ideas. Religion is additive and/or schismatic: new ideas proliferate alongside old ideas. With science, we get better. With religion, we get more."

    Thanks for the exercise, Feeno!

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  8. bob - "3 - Do some reading on biological evolution and thermodynamics in actual scientific books, rather than Christian apologetics books. Heck, just google "biological evolution" and "2nd law of thermodynamics", but you have to avoid the boatloads of Christian pseudoscience websites, because..."

    feen - "@#3. Something is contradictory, don't you think?"

    ??? Are you leaving it up to me to guess what you are talking about?

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  9. Yes, this was considered a huge discovery because it can be used to cultivate new tissues for people who have been burned, etc.

    Tink, I think your geeks up north are just as smart as our geeks down here

    LOL. Yes, and you have some of our best down there. At one time, many of our finest went there to make money. HOWEVER, might I remind you that the USA is no longer at the forefront of scientific discovery because George W Bush stopped stem cell research because of his beliefs. That was one of the biggest losses to your country.

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  10. "George W Bush stopped stem cell research because of his beliefs."

    Not to quibble, but George W Bush stopped FEDERAL FUNDING for stem-cell research, not the research itself. He didn't have the authority to do that. But yes, it definitely handicapped the U.S.

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  11. Stopping federal funding to the program, in all intense purposes, stopped the most promising aspect of stem cell research. Here is the exact transcript where he announced it to the world, and made it pretty clear that he disagrees. Here is his exact quote that clearly states his beliefs affected this decision;

    I also believe human life is a sacred gift from our creator. I worry about a culture that devalues life, and believe as your president I have an important obligation to foster and encourage respect for life in America and throughout the world.

    Here is the link;
    http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/gwbushstemcell.htm

    Obama has since lifted them. However, they are really far behind the rest of the world now. We have been doing some amazing work on The Human Genome Project. We have the gene linked to epilepsy, human brain evolution, genetic links to autism, etc.... However, our federal government is inconsistent with funding and many of our scientists have too leave too.

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  12. Feeno,

    I won't dwell on answering the questions you asked, mainly because a) GentleSkeptic already did a great job of that, and b) I'm not sure you really want answers to your questions. It sounds more like you want convenient little "traps" for atheists to get tripped up on. Unfortunately, all of your questions have been answered thousands of times, and Google is your friend here. If you really, truly want to know the answers to these questions, it's very easy to find them. If you're just looking for rhetorical devices to say, "Hah, look at them dumb atheists, can't even answer these questions!" ...then, I think perhaps it's necessary to take a step back and ask if you really are interested in learning from atheists to begin with.

    With that said, I do have just one thing to point out. This "evolution contradicts second law of thermodynamics" is an especially bad argument, and is based on a very VERY layperson's understanding of the law. Now I know you're not a scientist, so I'm not expecting you to understand it fully (heck, I don't either). But I just thought I'd point out that even Answers in Genesis says it's a bad argument. If you'd like more of an explanation why, here's a decent explanation.

    Cheers!

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  13. I wonder if God ever asks, "Why am I here?"

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  14. Hey Tink:

    You're absolutely right, it was a technical quibble that left the substance of your claim unaltered. The research is expensive and almost impossible to undertake - or rather unprofitable to undertake - by the private sector with no stimulus, especially on any kind of ambitious scale. We definitely lost an edge there.

    >sighs<

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  15. Bret "Ginx" Alan said..."I wonder if God ever asks, "Why am I here?"

    Yeah, because Feen and faithjful folks have discovered seems everything must always need a cause, therefore even Gods must need God creators cause ,or else we get back to things simply just happening by some weird "accident" ?.

    And complexity and design of any God, would be an amazing coincidence ! . Aye Feen? ... You know like ..of all the type of Gods that "might" have been "caused to exist" . Like bad ones,cheeky ones,smelly ones,silly ones, nasty ones etc

    Just so happens ! the ones that were "caused" were all, but ! my homies a Omnipotent, my homies a omniscience, my homies a benevolent , etc etc!

    And so i wonder what it was that first created the God creator?,that first created the other God creator?,that first Created that other God creator God creators creator , etc etc ?.

    Maybe we need to have seperate worships for all these "God creators creators" too as well ? ,or risk! being sent straight! to some "jealous God creators creator creator creator creator etc etc-> x infinite ammounts!" ((higher hell)) ....phew!!

    So dont ever go past Go! and dont ever collect the $200 ! eternal life lottery grant etc.

    Man what terrible situations,and all because of some crazy "fruit" hanging off a tree looking awfully "tasty" ! ,rather than unpalatible .And sneaky talking snake

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  16. Feen said.."For atheism to be true we all are here by accident. And the complexity and design of the universe is an amazing coincidence."

    Question: can random accidents like this possibly happen without conscious cause?

    Type of analogy:

    Where:1,A totally blind human = equals random chance/amazing coincidence

    2 , A empty bucket placed quietly "randomly" somewhere/anywhere in a room, equals the miracle of a planet that given billions and billions of years ,somehow evolves

    3,The totally blind human has been lead into the doorway of the room, not able! to know (mindless) anything about where the bucket may sit ,or that its even known as a bucket because he`s completely blind and mindless.But then this blindman (reprosenting the random) proceeds to toss objects mindlessly about the room (to reprosent gasses chemical reactions, or whatever it was) in a totally random! way .Except the "time period" available to keep this random tossing up! is thought to maybe even be billions! of years .

    4, Would it really? still be sure! to absolutely always need to take some real inteligence (a mind caused" design?) , for enough objects to still have enough "chances" to land in, and fill up the whole bucket? ,given so much billions of years time being availible.

    Or will the ammount of time that available, almost predict! it must happen ,its simply "more than likely" it must happen, by random chance x by the available length of time.

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  17. Frankly, Feeno, you lost me at "thermodynamics". If you'd read anything about thermodynamics besides the most ignorant creationist propaganda, you would know that local increases in order do not violate the law. If they did, you couldn't build a tower of Lego without defying physics.

    You don't question anything that supports you, and therefore you regularly parrot crap. Please don't.

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  18. Bret "Ginx" Alan said,

    "I wonder if God ever asks, "Why am I here?"

    And that, I think, is a good question!

    And if it's not a "good" question, at least it's a funny question in the sense that it makes me laugh! Yeah, God's going about His Day to Day chores and in moments of reflection ponders the meaning of His existence. Why Not?

    Nice Thought, Ginx!

    SteveO

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  19. I would just like to say this.... It is sooooo nice to get back to interesting thread without the troll present... That being said.

    "For atheism to be true we all are here by accident. And the complexity and design of the universe is an amazing coincidence."

    Gandolf gave a bucket analogy, which is true. However, I would give it the metaphor of being a savings account. You make a small deposit, interest compounds very slowly over a long period of time, and you have a small fortune of money one day. That is how evolution works.

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  20. Do some reading on biological evolution

    Under strictly controlled laboratory conditions, germs can evolve into other types of germs.

    While in nature germs eventually morph into talking monkeys.

    Don't question Bob. Just believe.

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  21. "Under strictly controlled laboratory conditions, germs can evolve into other types of germs."

    = Observation that complexity accrues over time.

    "While in nature germs eventually morph into talking monkeys."

    = logical extrapolation, supported by mountains of evidence, from observation that complexity accrues over time. It really is that simple.

    "Don't question Bob. Just believe."

    Question away: there are many fascinating and well-supported answers.

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  22. Feeno-

    Did you know that I've seen the Matrix films over 40 times?

    Yeah over 40!!!

    A little known fact about yours truly... I was a 'gopher' helping a Professor who contributed to the 'Philosophy of the Matrix' book series.

    I had to assist in a lot of research. And part of that research was to watch the films and pay really close attention. But I got a full week off just to become a couch potato for school credit. Awesomeness!

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  23. Observation that complexity accrues over time

    Has there ever been a case where they became anything else BUT germs?

    In the ever changing world of (evolutionary) biological fads and isms, is it any wonder why one might question such a theory?

    Just in the last year or so, I can cite such examples as..

    1) It appears that birds did NOT evolve from therapod dinosaurs as previously believed,

    2) Recent studies have shown that "much of bird classification and conventional wisdom on the evolutionary relationships of birds is wrong."
    Link

    3) In fact, the so-called "Tree of Life" theory is being increasingly discarded

    And these are just off of the top of my head in that I really don't follow this nonsense all that closely.

    These snakeoil salesmen spout off about species to species macroevolution and they don't even know what a species is! This link lists 26 different definitions for the word "species. There might actually be more if we look a little harder.

    Is this the sort or rigor that one would expect from a so-called "science"?

    Question away: there are many fascinating and well-supported answers

    Thanks. Let's start with this one.

    Does any other psuedo-science have anywhere near as ghoulish a record for outright fraud, hoaxes and speculation?

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  24. The link for the new Scientist article about the Tree of Life being discarded dindt go through. Upon closer examination, it appears that New Scientist has archived the article and you can only read the first couple of paragraphs free of charge.

    From the main body of the origina report...

    "For much of the past 150 years, biology has largely concerned itself with filling in the details of the tree. "For a long time the holy grail was to build a tree of life," says Eric Bapteste, an evolutionary biologist at the Pierre and Marie Curie University in Paris, France. A few years ago it looked as though the grail was within reach. But today the project lies in tatters, torn to pieces by an onslaught of negative evidence. Many biologists now argue that the tree concept is obsolete and needs to be discarded. "We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality," says Bapteste. That bombshell has even persuaded some that our fundamental view of biology needs to change.

    So what happened? In a nutshell, DNA."

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  25. JD, from your link above ("It appears that birds did NOT evolve from therapod dinosaurs as previously believed") -

    "The newest findings, the researchers said, are more consistent with birds having evolved separately from dinosaurs and developing their own unique characteristics, including feathers, wings and a unique lung and locomotion system.
    There are some similarities between birds and dinosaurs, and it is possible, they said, that birds and dinosaurs may have shared a common ancestor...
    "

    So what's your point? You don't believe what any evolutionary biologist says concerning evolution, so why are you linking to what an evolutionary biologist is saying? You are basically using what one liar says against another liar, and claiming one liar is telling the truth.

    What a dolt.

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  26. I'm sorry Bob, but I was dialoging with "Gentle Skeptic", not you.

    I have decided to adopt your unique method of argumentation by refusing to answer direct questions when you put them to me. Same goes to Tink-a-dink.

    I am, after all, merely a troll, arent I?

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  27. I'm 100%, give or take, with the JDudster on this deal!

    I heard (actually read) that within this very century that "Darwinism" and the "theory of evolution" is going to become the laughing stock of Science. I don't remember the dudes name who said this, but I think he was a Top Flight Theologian, totally brainy dude who wrote big books and everything like that.

    Aside from that, my own hunch is that all of this scientific mumbo-jumbo about "naturalistic" causes of disease is on the verge of being toppled in favor of good old fashioned "God Centered" medicine. Yep, there are evil spirits flitting about us causing all sorts of physical and mental maladies. Same today as it was two thousand years ago and as it will be two thousand years from now, that is unless Jesus comes back sooner in which case it's a whole New Ballgame, if you know what I mean! And "Naturalistic Medicine" is of no avail against the Supernatural. Only the Supernatural has every been able to do battle with the supernatural, and if you don't understand that, well, I guess I just feel sorry for you.

    Yep, and if you buy into all of this...

    Well, let me wrap this post up with a quote from my favorite philosopher of all time. His name was Wayne. Wayne said, "Yeah, Right, And Monkeys might fly out of my butt!"

    El SteveO
    VooDoo Wizard Deluxe

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  28. Okay, I'm back!

    I had to go on a mad hunt to find my source for the prophesied "Death of Darwinism" cause I know some of the Scholastic/Academic types, like JD, who hang out here wouldn't be satisfied with me spreading some Crazy Ass Internet Rumour that I might have made up myself.

    Well here it is Folks!

    "A Prediction

    I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it’s been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has.—Malcolm Muggeridge, The End of Christendom (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1980), 59."

    I actually scored this Gem off of a blog that a dude I was friends with in high school has. He is now a Professional Christian Apologist of the Evangelical variety. He's no fan of "Darwinism", or "Secular Humanism" and a lot of other Post-Medieval Philosophical Trash, and I can't say that I blame him seeing how it's upset the Supernaturalist Apple Cart.

    Oh Well...

    Got some Mad VooDoo I need to get to work on!

    Catch You all Later!

    VooDoo Steve

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  29. JD Curtass said- "I'm sorry Bob, but I was dialoging with "Gentle Skeptic", not you."

    I accept your apology.

    "I have decided to adopt your unique method of argumentation by refusing to answer direct questions when you put them to me."

    Fair enough. I won't ask you any questions. I'll just point out your obvious inconsistencies, glaring mistakes, and outright lies.

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  30. I DO NOT FEED THE TROLL. It is just another ploy for him to get off. He is insane. I am really glad that he thinks that he is getting back at me. Troll, troll, troll.

    Maybe he can pray to JC to get help to control his trolling tendencies. That would be a long list.

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  31. Steve,

    Such "If we don't understand something, we'll just 'punt to God'" reasoning is something prevelent in the Eastern religions. Such fatalism is unheard of in mainstream Christianity.

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  32. Tink, just to clarify: the troll is JD, yeah? I'm still new here so the troll warnings are appreciated.

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  33. @JD

    Right you are!

    Any attempt to reduce Christianity and Christians into a caricature of pre-scientific superstitious bufoons and bufoonery is doomed to failure as it will not be supported by the evidence. Which isn't to say that such a negative portrayl wouldn't be justified on the basis of a very selective consideration of some Christians and some forms of Christianity.

    You know JD, I'm not sure that you and I would make very good room-mates, but Feeno's Roadside Cafe just wouldn't be as interesting a place without you.

    Be thee Man, Troll, or as I say, Right Wing Christian Ninja, you add something like Spice to my visits here.

    Until We Tussle Again,

    SteveOliosus Maxumus
    In my Roman Incarnation

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  34. Yes, the troll here is JD..... Unless he actually reforms and proves that he is anything otherwise, I will retract my position. But, in purely troll, attention seeking stereotype, he entered this thread in an inflammatory position that intellectually resembles a three year old at best. He gets off on it. Please, do not take my word for it. If you want to see the true picture of Gimli, check out his blog. Then, you can see for yourself.

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  35. @ Steve- We all liked the spice at first too. And, then, his trollness gets realized. When you have listened to him spew the same racist, homophobic, and teenage argument designed to get a rise out of you, you will tire of the troll too. One small example, he cites Wikipedia time and time again, and then in a couple of threads back he asked Tristan not too. Whatever he can to be inflammatory, oppositional, and in a contrary position at that moment in time. I refuse to believe that someone who dialogues with us as much as he does (we are not a dumb bunch) learns nothing. But he does not. It is the same argument time and time again. Thus, the troll. He just gets a kick out of pissing people off.

    The others are too nice to him. I am tired of it, and I will call him for what he is. Troll. Nothing more, nothing less. If the day comes that he actually displays respect for others ideas, a sincerely thought out argument, or an ability to refer to actual research that is not Christian propaganda, I will retract what I am saying. But, I am 99.9% sure that this will never come (there is always hope).

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