Friday, June 18, 2010

Screw Pascal

3 hypothetical questions.

You care about this person deeply. But their life is a train wreck. They have struggled their whole life with problems. They "find" Christ and really seem to be happy. After time passes you've noticed they have continued in their new found happiness.

Are you happy for them?

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"Eternal security". I think the bible teaches that once you are saved or born again that no matter what you do in life after wards, you will be with the Lord when you die. We call that "once saved, always saved".

Think about your favorite Atheist who once was part of the church. He or she is now on a crusade trying to convince anyone who will listen, about all the reasons not to believe in God.

What if God turns out to be real, and they wind up in heaven and you and Fred Phelps don't?

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What happens if most of the things you think about God turn out to be wrong? You know all the excuses people use to say if he did exist, His ways aren't fair. But you actually end up liking most of His ways, but by then, it's too late?

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I'm off to the woods, gonna spend the night with our K-5th graders at some State park here in Ohio. I wish that was hypothetical.

Deuces, feeno

23 comments:

  1. 1 - "...Are you happy for them?"
    Yes. All I would want for anyone I know is for them to be happy. But what do I do if they try to convince me that I need what they now have, in order to be happy...?

    2 - "What if God turns out to be real, and they wind up in heaven and you and Fred Phelps don't?"
    Doh!

    3 - "...but by then, it's too late?"
    Doh!

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  2. What if one of those other religions wind up being true, rather than Christianity (or your version of Christianity), and you, Fred Phelps, and the rest of us non-believers wind up in that religion's version of hell?

    What then?

    What happens if most of the things that you believe about God turn out to be wrong and you find that you can no longer find love in your heart for the kind of god that actually rules the universe?

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  3. "They 'find' Christ and really seem to be happy. After time passes you've noticed they have continued in their new found happiness.

    Are you happy for them?"


    I'd be happy for them as long as their beliefs do not lead them to: a) actively and persistently try to convert me to their religion b) engage in actions that would harm me or other people I love and care about c) embrace prejudices against various minority groups and other religions based upon their new found belief system.

    "Think about your favorite Atheist who once was part of the church. He or she is now on a crusade trying to convince anyone who will listen, about all the reasons not to believe in God."
    Just for the record, I don't really care if someone believes in deities or Jesus Christ. Their spirituality is their business. I do care about issues a, b, and c that I listed above.

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  4. 1. Why would anyone who is not a completely evil bastard not be happy for someone who is happy (assuming they aren't happy at the expense of someone else... Catholic priests come to mind...)?

    2. I don't even think I could get into Heaven, but I think the idea of "once saved, always saved" is fundamentally stupid. I think I missed that verse in the Bible where Jesus said, "Walk with me... but only when it's convenient, I'll remember that stroll we had decades ago..."

    3. I'm confused. Are you saying... if God turns out to be evil and I'm evil so I agree with him, would that be good? Yeah I guess... in a horribly evil sort of way. But I stand by my preference to burn next to homosexuals and women who spoke up than to have to put up with being surrounded by bigots for eternity.

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  5. GOD 1 - atheists 0


    Atheists,

    you are ENEMIES OF GOD AND ARE GOING TO BE ANNIHILATED...

    Repent and turn to God or be destroyed...

    YOU HAVE NO CHOICE...

    my interpretation of the STATUE FIRE... it symbolizes the SPIRITUAL DEATH of atheism...



    http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/topofthetimes/national/la-naw-0616-jesus-statue-lightning-20100616,0,4295974.story


    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/6/16/1276680110544/The-King-of-Kings-statue--005.jpg



    http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-06/54332292.jpg


    http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/butterjesus-1.jpg



    PRINCESS DI IS WEARING A NEW DRESS!


    http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/speechesandarticles/a_speech_by_hrh_the_prince_of_wales_titled_islam_and_the_env_252516346.html

    ______________________________

    http://skepticblog.org/2010/04/06/would-i-ever-pray-for-a-miracle/

    Shermer, I WANT TO SEE YOU BEG FOR A MIRACLE...
    ___________________


    we do like your music Lady Gaga, but...


    The B**BQUAKE - 911


    Let me show you the FATE OF TRAITORS...


    http://www.loiterink.com/photos/products/182_3424_500x500.jpg

    they are incapable of telling the difference between SCIENTIFIC *FACT* AND RELIGIOUS AND PHILOSOPHICAL *TRUTH*... FATAL ERROR!

    they also preach a *VALUE FREE SCIENCE* called *POSITIVISM* that ignores the inequalities of wealth and power in capitalist civilization...



    for a sample taste of PZ Myers' GARBAGE...

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/sunday_sacrilege_imagine_no_he.php


    HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!!!

    http://hawaiiwebgroup.com/maui-design/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/website-hijacking.jpg


    HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!!!

    how can these HEADLESS IDIOTS BET AGAINST GOD!!!
    ________________________________________


    what happens when you LOSE Pascal's Wager...


    http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm

    _____________


    you FIGHT PAPER MONSTERS...

    the blood and bodies of the atheist movement...


    you mofos killed MICKEY MOUSE!!!!


    this has more TRUTH then what Dawkins, Randi, Harris, Myers, and Shermer
    combined have said in their entire lives...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=5R2wE8Sduhs&playnext_from=TL&videos=hht1U_19anc&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_fresh%2Bdiv-1r-3-HM



    they tried to BULLDOZE the entire METAPHYSICAL DIMENSION...

    they LOST THE WAR......

    you have FORFEIT YOUR SOUL, shermer... you have become an object in the
    material world, as you WISHED...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUB4j0n2UDU

    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/7/11792994_ffaaee87fa.jpg

    we're gonna smash that TV...

    They had become ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE AND OF GOD...
    you pushed too much and *CROSSED THE LINE*

    degenerates (PZ) or children (HEMANT) - ATHEISTS!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRRg2tWGDSY

    do you have anything to say, you STUPID LITTLE F*CKER?

    how about I tell you, Mr. Shermer, EVERYTHING YOU THINK ABOUT THE WORLD is

    *WRONG*

    THE BOOBQUAKE - 911!

    http://dissidentphilosophy.lifediscussion.net/philosophy-f1/the-boobquake-911-t1310.htm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx7XNb3Q9Ek

    RUN, ATHEISTS, RUN!!!

    -------------------

    http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-information.html

    the 9th and FINAL RING of Dante's Inferno is designed for little blaspheming traitors like you...

    "This is the deepest level of hell, where the fallen angel Satan himself resides. His wings flap eternally, producing chilling cold winds that freeze the thick ice found in Cocytus..."


    but at least FREE AIR CONDITIONING is included!

    ReplyDelete
  6. Spam: the mystery meat of the internet.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I think the idea of "once saved, always saved" is fundamentally stupid. I think I missed that verse in the Bible where Jesus said, "Walk with me... but only when it's convenient, I'll remember that stroll we had decades ago..."

    This being descibed is in essence Calvinism. That's because if there's no evidence to show that the person in question really did NOT change their life considerably after such a conversion, then maybe their testimony isnt so good after all. Maybe their experience wasnt genuine.

    The opposite point of view from the Christian perspective would be Arminianism.

    The arguments rattle on till this day in Christian camps.

    It's pretty pointless to discuss these sort of things with atheists though.

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  8. Well said, JD. One of my lecturers, who as a Wesleyan would be Arminian, once said that if you're a Christian, your lifestyle has to be consistent with your profession of faith. One benefit of living an authentic Christian life is that you deny ammunition to those atheists who like to point out examples of Christian hypocrisy to argue that this invalidates Christianity as a whole.

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  9. Ginx said..."I think I missed that verse in the Bible where Jesus said, "Walk with me... but only when it's convenient, I'll remember that stroll we had decades ago..."

    It was a light burden and the yoke wasnt even heavy... remember it now cuzz?.

    However one then wonders why even any need at all of any yoke in the first place ? .If Gods so very kind,then surely he could simply forgive! all folks, seeing its a simple fact that nobodys perfect anyway.

    But Crikey ..Noooo ...hold on.. how then can we ever get folks to have any "need" to be joining "our" specially tailored religions? ... so they can then make their tyths to "us" !!....Dang that yokes just a tiny wee bit light on it to our likeing if it become to freely available ...Specially extremely light on the ole church funds damn it ! ...Oh shit no ...Canny go handing out zee yokes for free

    So no you must have to join us ...Once joined and "saved" however ,you will be freely forgiven ...Which means no great need to go feeling to much honest concience about anything (pope) ...After all we do already ! simply accept we are always going to be sinners ! nudge nudge wink wink.....And thankfully once saved, a sinner is forever saved which allows us christian sinners to specially always feel kinda safe n sound about ourselves

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  10. Feen said..."Are you happy for them?"

    Yes ...Happy people mostly usually do tend to make me happy allso.That is unless so happens, their happiness i happen to always be having to be paying a costly price for.

    Hope your night up the woods is fun Feen

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  11. Ross said...."One benefit of living an authentic Christian life is that you deny ammunition to those atheists who like to point out examples of Christian hypocrisy to argue that this invalidates Christianity as a whole."

    Having said that then Ross, havent you then by the very act of saying it, infact even set yourself up for a goal thats straight away become not even achievable? ..Because considering you also set the goal that supposedly to even be forgiven according to your thought ..You must be ! "living an authentic Christian life"

    There is plenty of hypocrisy just in that very thought isnt there ? ...Considdering nobodys ever going to be perfect anyway. ...As soon as Christian claim their christianity as be "living ((the)) authentic life" ...They automatically try raising themeslves above others.

    Can thinking your better than somebody else, ever honestly be considder such a very "virtuous character" Ross?.Faith by its very core belief, cannot ever be of "very virtuous character".Its simply a self defeating thought in itself.Faith is the very core of Hypocrisy

    Its your very "belief system" itself that "makes" you automatically fail Ross.

    Why the need to try blaming the problem on atheists??, whos only real action is to go highlighting the problem for you.

    We are not the ones making you feel need to "join" some "special belief system" designed for method of your "self elevation" above others, that are not amongst you.

    It the "faiths" that ALL chose that belief system so very lacking in "honesty" of "virtous character"

    Is it also such a virtuous character, to go try blame your own problem, on some others ?

    ReplyDelete
  12. DM said "YOU HAVE NO CHOICE...

    my interpretation of the STATUE FIRE... it symbolizes the SPIRITUAL DEATH of atheism..."

    But God had a choice no??.

    Why he not decide to blow up either Dawkins or your real "good friend" PZ Myers! pad , instead of picking on the Christian palaces ?

    Does it resemble the SPIRITUAL DEATH of the Gods ....maybe? do you think DM .


    The Gods the bast**ds are picking on Christians also now ...Grrrr its plurry "spiritual death" i tells ya ...Real damn Johnny Rotten !! stuff

    Hey but maybe the Gods "spiritual death" happened to symbolize the "spiritual death" of DM always "spamming" and "threatening death" on so many blogs !

    Now theres a real spiritual !! thought DM

    Whataya think?

    ReplyDelete
  13. JD
    Thanks for the help. I didn't necessarily want to get into a doctrinal debate on eternal security, my boy Geenks brought that up. I'm always glad when you stop by and have my back. Peace.

    Geenks
    You know how the internet works. I often hear the only reason Christians are happy is because we are delusional. I wasn't implying that an atheist couldn't be happy for a Believer, just wondering how you all would think? But as always you give great insight and answers.

    Ross da boss
    Please stay tuned you have just inspired my next post. Good lookin' owt.

    Gandyman
    I did have fun, but am glad it's over. Make any sense? Thanks for sentiment.

    DM
    uh, never mind

    Bob
    Thanks for the good thoughts and getting the ball rolling.

    timberwraith
    I will share my faith, but that's about it. I don't think anyone can be sold on Christianity or tricked into it and certainly not forced into it. I'm glad to hear from you.

    Late, feeno

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  14. Feenigan, you just called Ross 'Ross the Boss', who is the former guitarist of the band Manowar. Just interesting that you used that name. www.ross-the-boss.com

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  15. Lordship

    What's interesting is that the band would use that name Manowar. Big Red was the greatest race horse of all time. www.horsehats.com/ManOWar.html

    late, feeno

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  16. Gandolf,

    Could you dialog with DM some more? I think we've finally found somebody worthy of logical argumentation that is is tune with your unique type of intellect and that posits such genuine pearls of wisdom at the rate that you do.

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  17. Our good friend JDiddly, thanks some much for the heads up.Im just so thankful i learned a little of the fine art of understanding faith gibberish ..What a mighty fine faith gibberishian teacher you are JD.And its also always such a pleasure in the presence of the great warmth that just emanates from you...Like a Blast Freezer.
    Blessings JD... May all the many mythical Gods of the whole universe lovingly come down upon you and even bless your sweet lil cotton socks too.And seeing your pro life! and into adoption! and stuff..... then may the offspring of atleast 15-billion fleas make your sweaty armpits their home.

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  18. That's not very ladylike of you, JD.

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  19. *sigh*

    Could I make a small request of y'all? Could folks find another way to poke fun at each other without insulting each other's gender/masculinity/sexual orientation/etc.? I realize it's part of the "fun and games" that guys engage in, but I actually find it to be depressing. (I'm not singling out any one person in this thread, as I've seen this take place between several people on this blog.)

    In the long run, joking like this serves to police each other's masculinity and that winds up hemming men and boys into very limited ways of expressing themselves as human beings. I'm guessing that many of you are familiar with the fear of not being seen as "man enough?" How many times have you modified your behavior just to avoid that kind of judgment?

    Again, I realize that much of this is in a spirit of joshing and fun, but it really does have a negative impact on boys and men.

    OK, I'm going to step down off the soapbox now. Back to our regularly scheduled debate...

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  20. Gandolf, with all due respect, you appear to be reading too much into my comments. That's not what I mean at all. Only God knows what's in a person's heart, so it's absolutely not my place to judge.

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  21. GTA, that's funny. As it happens I'm a (very) amateur guitarist, and certainly not in the same league as that Manowar bloke.

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  22. Sorry Ross i wasnt saying you were involved hypocrisy in any personal way.I was meaning all faiths are about a type of hypocrisy, because all their beliefs are along the lines that folks should need to have their faith for salvation.

    Thats why the Catholics claimed to be from "the" line of fist Christian church.And other folks will say Mormons are not real christians.And baptist will claim you need baptism.And westbros will say God hates people.Islamist will say folks need the Koran.etc

    And maybe its not for people to judge,but still faith always do.If they didnt judge,then there would not have ever been even any need for any schisms.

    Making the "core" of faith belief a type of hypocrisy.The thought often is,you just aint good enough until you join up.

    Sorry if you thought i was suggesting you were personally into hypocrisy.

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  23. Your post isn't "screw Pascal", Feeno, it's "screw all the objections to Pascal". The third question is the Wager in a newish form.

    1. I'm happy my friend is happy, but always concerned that they've based their happiness on a falsehood, and at any point they could realise this and be so depressed that they destroy everything they think God has given them, but in fact they've worked for themselves.

    2. JD has pointed out the loophole in the Calvinist idea of "eternal security": if someone who's "saved" behaves as if "unsaved", the "salvation" can be declared insincere and therefore retconned out of existence. It's the only way to maintain that doctrine and still encourage continued worship after being "born again".

    3. Then I'd go to Hell. That's what you're angling for. Doesn't worry me, though, because it's one hell of an "if".

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