Thursday, June 3, 2010

God, Gandy and the Good Samaritan

The age old question of whether religion has done more harm than good, won't be answered today. Well, at least not by me. Obviously religion has caused our friend Gandolph nothing but pain and suffering. Yet others would say their life was a confusing mess until they "found religion".

Have you ever wondered how life would be different without religion? I'm not saying for better or worse, just different.

I live in the 'burbs of Cincinnati Oh. And one of the things I do between my tile jobs is to visit people in the Hospital to hopefully brighten their day a little bit? Most of the major Hospitals in Cincinnati are on or around the University of Cincinnati. (Go Bearcats) Here is a list of Hospitals I have recently been to. Mercy (Catholic Hospital), The Good Samaritan, Christ, The Jewish Hospital, St. Elizabeth and Bethesda. As a matter of fact the only Hospital in Cincinnati that I can think of where I have been that doesn't have a religious background is the University of Cincinnati's Hospital.

Does that make up for all the abuse people like Gandy and others have or had to endure? I would say it is never OK to hurt or harm anyone, no matter what "cause" it is for. Unfortunately, religion is used by many people, simply for personal gain. Whether that be money, power or fame.

Here's my real question. Is it possible that there is God, yet man, in his fallen state makes religion look bad? Is it possible that God will judge those "religious" more than the afflicted that deny him?

I can't answer these questions. I can tell that God is a Holy and Righteous Judge and I have confidence that he will do what is just.

Peace out, girl scout. feeno

24 comments:

  1. Is it possible that there is God, yet man, in his fallen state makes religion look bad?

    Is it possible that an all-knowing, all-powerful God is (despite these traits) incapable of producing a decent religion, not to mention some evidence? I don't know, but it seems to indicate mankind is pretty powerful, if we can just go about circumventing the divine.

    Then again, is it not also possible that gods are not perfect, maybe even deeply flawed, and that their religions perfectly reflect this?

    Is it possible that God will judge those "religious" more than the afflicted that deny him?

    I would hope not. Everyone ought to be judged equally, by the same standards. Ignorance may be the only excuse, but not rejection. Now, whether gods care whether or not we believe in them is another matter, and one which would indicate how petty they are or are not.

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  2. Hey Feeno!

    No, the timeless question of the value of religion won't be solved today. Probably not. But it might be. Maybe.

    I'm pretty chill on other peoples religious beliefs and identities. Just makes sense to me. That is, as long as they are not injurious to other folks. And I guess that is the stumbling block when this question or problem arises. A while back at T-Vick's blog I questioned our pal the Gandy-Man about his anger towards religion. He hooked me up with some reading that really opened a window for me to look through to get a sense of where he was coming from and what he had experienced. Believe me, it was not a pretty sight.

    On the other hand, when you talk about what your religion means to you and how it contributes to your life I have nothing but respect for your candor. No, I don't think that you are an irrational simpleton for believing differently than I do. I'm not saying that you are NOT an irrational simpleton, but if you are I reckon I am as well...

    Yeah, we live in a vast and mysterious universe. Whatever helps keeps your kyak upright is cool with me. Some folks don't feel that way, but like I always say, "Fuckem".

    Later

    Steve

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  3. Anytime you take a representative sample of whatever subset of humanity you wish, there are bound to be some douche-bags. They're the ones who make the news. Of course, that includes people who purport to be religious. I figured out a long time ago, that if I base my Christianity on anything/anyone other than Christ crucified, I was destined for disappointment. So, I think the answer to your question about Man fouling up God's plan, is "of course."

    Cheers.

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  4. Oh! By the way, I give kudo's to T-Vick in his pursuit of truth as well. I just want to be forthright so as not to appear duplicitous. I can attempt to explain that if you'd like but can some it up pretty concisely with one word, "pluralism".

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  5. Geenks, Dig the new pic of the hound. You say "circumventing the Divine"... I say freewill. But good thoughts just the same.

    Subcooler, I have only read between the lines about Gandy's past. I'm sure it wasn't pretty. I'll try to find his story over at T-Vicks. Thanx

    RS, Very nice. I think people inside and outside the church make this mistake all the time. We measure our "goodness" by relating how we stack up to others and not Christ.

    Later, feen

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  6. Ever heard of the Starlight Foundation, Feeno? It's a huge non-profit organisation which goes to hospitals with clown acts, video games, celebrities and all sorts of stuff to make the patients feel better, especially chronically ill children. It's an entirely secular program, and of course many of the hospitals where it operates are secular as well (though it doesn't discriminate against religious ones).

    The point is that the things religious groups do which supposedly balance out their failings, like build hospitals and comfort the sick, are also done by the non-religious and so do not require religion or religiosity. If there weren't as many religious hospitals, there would be more secular ones because there would be more demand for hospitals regardless of their founding bodies. If there were fewer Christian charities, there'd be more secular ones and they'd probably do very well because they wouldn't turn off the non-devout by preaching in their ads.

    Therefore, though a world without religion would lack the causes of a great deal of its current violence, it wouldn't be lacking in humanitarianism.

    As for your other point, you're free to credit God with everything good about religion and blame humans for everything bad about it, but it's a short-sighted defence of God. As long as you can retroactively reassign the agency of events at the drop of a hat depending on their outcome, you can't establish beyond reasonable doubt that God's ever actually done anything.

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  7. I think it is worth investigating why there are not more secular hospitals and charities. There certainly is a lack of motivation to come together as a community within the atheist population, and it shows. My suspicion is that atheists seem to be "avoid doing bad things" people, who do very little in the way of charity.

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  8. Exactly SmartLX,its quite normal we would happen to have lots more religion backed hospitals,when we happen to also have a population that overall has a higher majority of being religious.What else would we expect,the religious to start secular hospitals?.No not such good advertizing that.

    Fee said.."RS, Very nice. I think people inside and outside the church make this mistake all the time. We measure our "goodness" by relating how we stack up to others and not Christ."

    That still dont change anything about the fact humans do need some sort of checks and balances and regulations that in turn hopefully work towards helping harmonize our lives a little giveing us all a better chance that a higher majority do ok.

    Take for instance the matter insanity,we dont simply rely on the insane to hopefully learn to go follow Christ .Hell even Feeno and Shermy would likely become a little vexed if thats all society did about the problem of insanity.We dont say oh look at that insane person standing there wanking in public, infront of my kids,never mind i must not be judging,i just wish he would learn to go follow ole Jesus.

    No (when it comes) to the insane we have standards and regulations that work towards giving us all some sort of protection.

    Yet matters of religion ? .Pffffft ...Little standards ,no real regulation as such ....If so happens some poor bastard gets born to religious loonys idiots, that decide they gonna take their kids and go live in a scummy ole cave in winter.Or follow some loony tune that in the end tells everyone to commit suicide.

    Shermy an Feen dont go getting too upset.It dont happen to directly effect them.They will simply sit back after the worse has already happened and its really already to late ...And say stuff like ...Oh well the fact is!.. those folks over there just really aint real Christians, as far as we is concerned ...Dont compare us to them blah blah ..tut tut!

    But thing is, its not really about any matter of comparing anyone.We dont sit around comparing each other to the insane either ...But that dont stop us having some checks and balances and general standards that help govern what kids and people in general are all subjected to in life.We dont allow insane people the right to subject their children to any old mistreatment they wish, or start putting them in harms way to often.No we do something about it.

    Yet when it comes to religious groups ..Folks just stand back for years and years and watch ..And then!... say how terrible they think that group was, and the "christians" will call them how unchristian they is etc blah blah....When the damage is already done! and its already to bloody late!.

    As humans we have standards and regulation of whats generally considdered insane or not,so we atleast have some type of standard by which we can then have some "right" to be judging others by.

    But no.. the christians/faithful dont, they have no standards, and just sit back after the damage is done!, taking worthless pointless pot shots at each other ,getting absolutely no where! towards deciding what the standard actually should be.

    And all the while folks like me and heaps of others ...Stand by powerless to do anything (because we are regulated by certain standards and laws, so cant take the law into our own hands)and all we can do is simply watch our lives go by..And any chance of a normal family life,simply get wasted and fade away into the finality of our death.

    I think maybe you only really ever actually know how frustrating this is ..And how bloody angry it can make ya sometime ....When you happen to PERSONALLY experience it

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  9. Ginx..."There certainly is a lack of motivation to come together as a community within the atheist population, and it shows"

    Hi Ginx ...NZ has become a very secular country,we still have plenty of hospitals and charity that per level of population quota,is often said by some, to almost be unmatched anywhere else in this world.

    In NZ very few go without food or clothing or dont have a roof over their heads.And folks are mostly kind and helpful towards each other.

    But we still have this old stigma, of not being allowed to mess with peoples "faith freedoms" .And so we have the abusive cults that fuck certain peoples live up... and people (including "real christians") still mostly just stand back bitching and running them down from the sidelines ....Yet will do little to actually change matters

    Freedom of faith ...over rule matters

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  10. By the way, I give kudo's to T-Vick in his pursuit of truth as well. I just want to be forthright so as not to appear duplicitous

    What? Are you and "Jeffy the Jefe" on the outs or something?

    Ginx, your 4:53 post was the most intellectually honest thing I've ever seen from you.

    ...NZ has become a very secular country, we still have plenty of hospitals and charity that per level of population quota,is often said by some, to almost be unmatched anywhere else in this world

    The highly religious United States gives more than twice as much as the second ranked country insofar as charitable giving as a percentage of GDP is concerned. The US contributes about 1.8% of GDP while 2nd ranking Canada and England give about .7%. The most atheistic nation in all of Europe, France, ranks near the bottom at .15 of GDP. Link

    In NZ very few go without food or clothing or dont have a roof over their heads

    Which is easy to do because nobody lives in New Zealand. This reminds me of the imbeciles that are trying to shove socialized medicine down our throats here in the US and cite such low population countries as Norway as a pipe-dream example that it can be done on a much larger scale.

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  11. G, Thanks for commenting.

    From your point of view nothing is being done about "faith abuses". The problem is you have just as much control over these matters as I do. If it's true that we (Christians) are simply standing on the sidelines, it would be safe to say there is a lot of other non-religious people standing around them as well.

    Our hands are tied. If I tell you that there are groups of Christians who seek to council victims of abuse from faiths. You will just say that we are saying "those folks over there ain't real christians". There are churches popping up all over the place that are trying to appeal to those who have been hurt by, or usually don't like the church. There is one in the 'Nati that simply says on it's marquee "A church for those who don't like church". Many are trying. But I can't control Christians any more than you can control Atheists.

    Christians are loudly against any church folk using his/her power or position to molest,
    rape, embezzle, physically or mentally abuse anyone. If these things occur most would be in favor of the strictest penalties and enforced by long prison sentences. And those who are caught covering up such acts should also be punished as much as the law will allow.

    In the USA the religious and non-religious have to pay the same consequences for speeding, jay walking, murder, rape, tax evasion, stealing or putting a beat down on some-one. And I'm for that. Nobody should be able to hide behind a religion to escape the consequences of their actions.

    If a non-religious person kidnaps, rapes and tortures someone and they happen to be a shoe salesman, should we go on a "witch hunt" or "shoe salesman" hunt to eliminate the rights of all shoe salesman?

    If there are people being abused and people are turning a blind eye to it, it sounds like you have as big of a societal problem as a religious one?

    There are many bad parents out there who screw up their kids. Some are religious and some are not. Some are a physically, mentally or sexually abusive. Some just ignore their kids or are horrible role models and leave their kids to fend for themselves. And in many of these cases if not most religion had nothing to do with it.

    What is it we can do to help with these abuses that we aren't already doing? Or at least as much as the Agnostic, Atheist or non-religious is doing?

    Everyone who knows your story from around the blog world, would like those that perpetrated any abuses toward you and your siblings to face a judge someday. (I believe they will). Also all of us if we could would wish you could go back in time and enjoy your childhood like a kid should.

    And yes, it was religion that caused those abuses. Hell, it was religion that flew airplanes into buildings.

    Gandy I can't tell you who is a Christian or not? But God says this "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me".

    I hope for nothing but the best for you and yours, feeno

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  12. JD,

    Thanks for coming by, I missed you. Hope all is well with you and da fam.

    Peace, feeno

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  13. Feeno .."Our hands are tied. If I tell you that there are groups of Christians who seek to council victims of abuse from faiths. You will just say that we are saying "those folks over there ain't real christians". There are churches popping up all over the place that are trying to appeal to those who have been hurt by, or usually don't like the church."

    Faithful folks hands are tied, unless it comes to deciding something like, who can marry and who cant as in whether only male-female couples may marry etc.Then all of a sudden their hands become untied real quick.Tell me whats, so very different about regulating marriage, compared to regulation of religion? .Explain?.The way i see it both things involve setting boundarys and forming regulation.

    Whats wrong with you man...You think people like myself even want to have a "need" of these church council groups, in the first place? ..Why is your only answer involve counciling people after the damage?..What kind of answer is that?...Tell me feeno ,and how did your church council groups go, with counciling those folks lieing dead down there in Jonestown?...Were your church coucil groups any use by the time it got to that stage for those folks?.

    "Gandy I can't tell you who is a Christian or not?"

    But yet society can tell us how we may and may not build a house.What the boundarys of our road rules will be.Why many societies might even rule it illegal ! that Islamist faiths teach any tachings of jehad or terrorism etc.

    But yet there can be little other boundarys and regulation of faith set in place, to help protect folks from the other forms of faith abuse.

    You just set up your church council systems .Well then, why not allow the teachings of jehad and terrorism to be freely taught in local mosques too,your wonderful church counciling systems is set in place!, to clean up the aftermath right?.

    No im still not buying these feeble hollow excuses faithful folk offer, of why you say supposedly faith cannot also have some boundarys and regulation set in place, just like so many other things in our life do.

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  14. W'dup G

    This is kinda ironic after my post I just wrote. I've just come from the hospital, only this time I was visiting my 18 year old nephew who totaled his truck this morning. It was a one car accident and he rolled his truck and it ended up on it's roof. They kept him in a neck brace for about 4 hours until the MRI results came back. Other than a stiff neck and a couple broken bones he will be just fine.

    Anyways, I wont ever diminish the church's responsibilty for the bad things we do. And I would never, ever diminish the shit you had to endure. but please understand, that for every cold hearted and calloused Christian out there, you will find one who is caring and concerned and trying their best to eliminate all the pain anyone has caused. Whether it comes from the church or not.

    Maybe your right, if something is ever gonna be done to fix certain problems like these the church needs to become even more active to find solutions. But sometimes change is slow in coming and the church is not the only culprit.

    People aren't ignorant who believe in God. But people who do bad things in the name of God are.

    I think you realize this, because you at least understand that the church is able to help try to eliminate some of these problems.

    I know your blog isn't set up, but you can feel free to tell your story here at "if I became an Atheist" anytime you want. Like Tink, I don't know what I can do, but if there is something, please let me know and I'll try.

    Peace, feeno

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  15. JD...Jd...Oh... JD...!

    Your wit surpasses your intelligence, you muscley brained He-Man!

    Whence doth thou liveth?

    Perhaps you yearn for me to visit you and give you some dancing lesson? I would surely delight in teaching you a few steps from the "Dance of the Big Boot". It is a traditional 'dance' often practiced by my red-neck forbears and which I was well schooled in whilst still in my youth. Oh, that our physical separation makes it so difficult for me to properly school you in this most enlightening of educational endeavors! Alas and gee shucks, says I!!!

    But seriously, I get the feeling that your preoccupation with homo-eroticism may belie a deep yearning, nay, even a craving for the powerful amd sweaty melding of man-flesh to boy-flesh. I mean, you certainly wouldn't be the first Hyper-Conservative Self Proclaimed Christian proudly displaying themselves as Faggot Loathing, Pinko Hating Right Wing Bigots who secretly lust for, and sometimes endulges in, "boy pleasures" without regard to age, race, color or creed, would you? But hey, says I, to each their own! Although I would recommend that you stay away from the minors, and I don't mean the guys that dig coal, if you know what I mean...


    Got to give it you though Cuz, nobody else represents Christianity quite like you do. Truly, a sterling example of how the Holy Spirit cleanses and makes holy that which was defiled. But then again, maybe not....

    P3eace

    The Reverend Sub-Cee
    Self Ordained to Entertain!

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  16. Whoops!

    Just one more word of caution JD. You probably should stay away from the miners as well, you know, the guys that dig coal out of the ground.

    Those fellas are probably pretty likely well practiced in the "Dance of the Big Boot" as well and likely more than willing to demonstrate it to you if you go asking around for a 'throat culture'.

    Just doin' what I can to help you avoid trouble!

    P3eace

    Steve the Sub-Cool One..

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  17. Shucks again!

    And I thought I wouldn't descend to JD's level...

    Oh well....

    I guess there's only one way to go from here, and that would be UP!

    See y'all back on Higher Ground!!!


    Subcooler Schuler

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  18. The official position of "If I Became An Atheist" on violence is that under no circumstances will it be tolerated. Even if done in jest.

    Subcooler, I reprimand you to a timeout. Go stand in the corner until you've learned your lesson.

    I would suggest we all kiss and make up, but don't wont another homo-erotic response from Subcoolio, oops, too late.

    feeno

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  19. Sorry Feeno,

    Seriously, it really caused me pause to further corrupt your blog with moronic junior high school calibre homophobic taunting. But Hey! JD was seriously begging for it, and against what might have been my better judgement I didn't resist the temptation to crawl down to his level and give him a few 'dancing' lessons in extraordinarily low-level verbal combat. I know, it's not fair to engage in combat with an unarmed man, and I promise to never do it again.

    Steve the chastised one...
    Hanging my Head in Shame
    (tohidemyshiteatinggrin)

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  20. "People aren't ignorant who believe in God. But people who do bad things in the name of God are.

    I think you realize this, because you at least understand that the church is able to help try to eliminate some of these problems."

    Yes my friend i do know this.I do not at all, feel dislike of Christians, simply because they have faith .To be quite honest im not even somebody who wishes to see faith totally removed off the face of the earth.Just as because of rape and murder,im not somebody who hates all humans.

    I do understand there are many good Christian ,just as i also understand not all humans are rapists and murderers.

    But if faithful folks wont work together to decide on some better boundarys and regulation of faith,what other hope is there for people like me who get BORN into abusive faith ..But to hope as time goes on faith totally disappears.

    Its not a matter of me wanting that to happen.Its a matter that without faithful agreeing to do something active to remove more possibilitys of problems of faith abuse off this earth ,well the only hope that remains is a hope that faith will some day just start to entirely dissappear.

    The way i see it at present is all you different groups of faithful folk is kind of scared to be seen or heard to be dissing somebody elses faith belief.I understand that,thats like me on my own standing on the side lines,while running down how somebody lives their life.

    But if i never bothered running anyone down from the side lines.But instead called a public meeting making sure as many different people as possible came together to discuss the whole matter together,then its no longer just me standing on the side line running someone else down ...Its now a group of adults talking and being honest and discussing the problems together in a open and honest way ....Im not suggesting everyone will be happy ...But thats life ...Murders aint so happy going to jail either ,neither are most rapists.

    We cant always please everyone ,its a fact ...But i personally dont see why that should need to mean, children should be allowed to be BORN into abusive faiths ...and then have to suffer a lifetime! of faith abuse.


    Its crazy ..Its f**king barbarric ...How would folks feel if in the year 2010, we still happened to have absolutely no boudarys or regulation of marital violence and men were still allowed by law! to treat their women however they want.. like mere possessions?.

    There would be public outrage!.

    And yet people will stand by for years and quietly watch cults like Jim Jones slide further and further into madness and danger ...Folks will bitch from the side line and say shit like ..ohhh but we dont think they is real christians!

    And no amount of "ohh im sorry to hear that" is really gonna make any f**king difference is it.Its just to late.

    I suggest while all this faith abuse is happening and being simply "allowed" to keep happening....All you faithful folks who really believe in this judgment day ..Maybe need to be rethinking about just how clean your slate really is with regards to responsibility.


    Its just so very wrong ...Specially when the abuse is "connected" to matters of "faith" which has connections to "God" the "father", our supposed "saviour".Whats the rub with that shit?


    Is it really so civilised?.


    There is just not alot you or Tink or anyone can really do to help me now Feeno ...And thats the only reason why im so very passionate about this problem ...The only real help there could ever be ...Is for people to start take some positive ACTION towards finally sorting this problem out a little more, and trying to do stuff to work towards some real change ...So that hopefully it just "happens less" in the first place.

    Because its one of those things that once it happens ..You dont ever get another chance at living your life ...So theres just really no real fix.

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  21. JDidly said .."Which is easy to do because nobody lives in New Zealand. This reminds me of the imbeciles that are trying to shove socialized medicine down our throats here in the US and cite such low population countries as Norway as a pipe-dream example that it can be done on a much larger scale."

    Ahh mien JDidly ...There is just a price to pay for the sins of faithful folks, who dont ever use any birth control .Its just not NZs fault at all, if hoards of USA familys, tend to take on the persona of being lots like a large waddle of ducklings.That`ll teach em for watching far to much o the Waltons ,with Mary Ellen Jim Bob and John Boy ..and god knows how many others.

    Yes JDidly how very correct, we are a country full o that socialized medicine ,infact part o that socialized medicine, happens to include absolutely no freaking costly oil slicks.And the only wars we seem to tend to ever get involved in, are ones our friends in the USA suddenly find themselves in really costly deep shit with,where we go to do our best to try and help out if we possibly can.

    Now dont forget to come-on-over sometime now ya hear ....And get you some o this mighty fine socialized medicine !

    There is not even any need at all, to take your hat off to old Stalin or Mao .

    Much blessings JDidly.

    Your friend Gandy.

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  22. Whence doth thou liveth?

    Florida. There, is that vague enough for you? We've gone over this before and I'll reiterate, I'm strictly DC pal. There'll be no sex tourism to sunny SoFLA for you Mr Man.

    Got to give it you though Cuz, nobody else represents Christianity quite like you do. Truly, a sterling example of how the Holy Spirit cleanses and makes holy that which was defiled.

    Christians are forgiven, not perfect.

    Just one more word of caution JD. You probably should stay away from the miners as well, you know, the guys that dig coal out of the ground

    I'll stack the number of coal miners in my family history up against anyone. None were known to exhibit man-love on the level that you do.

    the only wars we seem to tend to ever get involved in, are ones our friends in the USA suddenly find themselves in really costly deep shit with,where we go to do our best to try and help out if we possibly can

    While you were eating Vegamite, we were kicking Nazi butt.

    There is not even any need at all, to take your hat off to old Stalin or Mao

    It's interesting how the meanderings of athiests bring them back to fellow practicioners of their non-theistic religion.

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  23. Actually, Feeno, to get back to the original question.

    If you look at the history of Western medicine, you will see that hospitals were established prior to the seperation of church and state. Many hospitals keep their religious affiliation out of respect to tradition and cultural heritage.

    And, there is a side of religion that is charitable, no doubt about it. That aspect of you visiting members of your community in the hospital is very sweet. However, there is a downside to it. Personally, I would respect if your church taught you to visit all of the people in the hospital that needed a visit, not just the ones that donate their money to them. I would respect if the church sent volunteers to the hospital to give visits to everyone, not just the people that are in their parish. If the churches even remotely attempted to present an image that EVERYONE mattered to them, I would respect them. But, as it stands, human kindness related to the church demands inclusion. And, that is why folks like us beef.

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