Friday, April 30, 2010

187

I never watch the news. And the only time I hear the news is on accident on my classic country station 910 AM every now and then between songs. I figure if something big enough happens I'll hear about it. But this morning on the news a guy was being interviewed after a guilty verdict came down on a murder case. He mentioned how that guy would be in Hell and blah blah blah.

When I talk to people about Heaven and Hell they usually say something like this, "Well I'll probably go to heaven, it ain't like I ever killed anybody". Is murder the cut off point for being banned from Heaven? Is everything else OK as long as we don't murder some one?

Maybe the murderer would say something like this, "We'll I only killed 1 person, Hitler killed 6 million people, so he should be in Hell, not me"?

If there is a God, and you were God, would you have rules on who gets in?

And if you would have rules, why can't God?

God's only rule is this, you can't get to me unless you get here through my son.

Later, feeno

17 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  2. If I were God, I would make different places for different people, with only mild punishments (the more ironic, the better). Maybe if someone was a liar in their lifetime, they could live in a heaven-like place, except they wouldn't be able to speak.

    I understand the idea of sin and how God seems to hate the stuff. It's vaguely reminiscent of Asians asking you to take your shoes off before you come inside, but you're like "I'd rather not," because your socks are dirty and full of holes. We're flawed, and God demands perfection. We can't achieve it, so we have to parade around in shame acknowledging our ineptitude for God to see, and we must be especially sure to ask to be forgiven.

    Here's a thought I doubt most Christians have considered: if Satan was once an angel at God's right hand, who's to say that heaven is an eternal reward? What if you DO get in, but you do something in heaven that gets you kicked out. Considering how finicky God is, I would not be surprised by the notion that if there is a heaven, it turns out to be little more than a revolving door to hell.

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  3. The age old problem. Man views sin horizontally and comparatively; i.e., "I am not as bad as the next guy." The problem is that we need to look at sin vertically. In light of God's holiness in comparison to the sinfulness of the best of us, "not being bad as the next guy" is meaningless. We come into God's presence and the only thing that matters is that we are BAD... period.

    Thankfully, God in His Holiness and Mercy provided a way out... an escape clause if you will: "Admit that you are bad, utterly helpless to earn you way into my grace; place your faith in my Son, who took the punishment that you deserve."

    Based on atheist comments at this blog and others like it, it seems that they find this road to salvation offensive. I have seen some express it in terms of being able to do what you want as long as you believe the right things.

    They obviously missed the point, because if you truly believe the right thing, you will not be living for youself any longer.

    Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

    Romans 3:7-9 Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all!

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  4. MC is spot on, of course. God has no hierarchy of sin when it comes to human separation from Him.

    That's the bad news.

    The good news is that there's no hierarchy of sin when it comes to his grace, either.

    Cheers.

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  5. Geenks

    You are brilliant and funny, and this is your world and were only living in it. I think you'd make a pretty cool god. I like the irony of eternal punishment you'd exact on people. Kinda like my punishment would be not being able to eat and have to watch people at a buffet all the time.

    As far as God kicking us out of heaven tho, Believers need not worry. We will have a new glorified body which will be unable to sin.

    _______________________________________________

    Crusty

    That will preach! Thank you.

    RS,

    There is a Christian blogger named Makarios, and at the top of his page he has a quote that mirrors your thoughts. It says "No one is so good that forgiveness isn't needed. And no one is so evil that forgiveness isn't offered".

    Good news indeed.

    ______________________________________________

    Dear DM, if the only boobies you have ever seen have been downloaded, maybe you should talk about something else.

    Peace be with you all, and thanks for commenting. feeno

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  6. All of that is fine and good when you are making the assumption that there is a God.

    Based on atheist comments at this blog and others like it, it seems that they find this road to salvation offensive. I have seen some express it in terms of being able to do what you want as long as you believe the right things.

    Oh MC, can you miss the point any further?

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  7. I'm not sure I missed the point, Tink. In fact, as has happened often in these cyber dialogues, I think I struck a nerve.

    The fact is that it is atheists themselves who find the Christian doctrine of salvation so offenseive for the reasons stated above, as I have seen at Makarios, Trees for Lunch, here and elsewhere.

    I find this curious. If these atheists are so convinced that there is no God, why is it so offensive and detrimental that people would come to peace with themselves by believing that Someone died for their sins 2000 years ago. What is the harm in that?

    If an atheist has come to the sober conclusion that this world happened by some major cosmic accident and we cease to exist after we die, I would think that from his vantage point of enlightenment he would benignly let people believe what they want to, if that is what will make this short meaningless life better for them. Vive la difference. But instead I see too many atheists promulgating their views vehemently, with a fervor that I can only describe as religious.

    I have asked this question in previous posts and my inevitable consclusion about many an atheist I have encountered in the blogosphere and elsewhere is, "Methinks he doth protest too loudly."

    I don't know if this applies to you. Perhaps you have just come to the sober conclusion that God does not exist and you are fine with that. But I am convinced that there are many self-professed atheists who profess it very loudly, not because they are convinced, but because it is their strong preference that God not exist, and they need to convince everyone including themselves that this is so.

    http://mdcrustacean.blogspot.com/2009/07/christian-and-atheist-bloggers-abound.html

    http://mdcrustacean.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-is-your-drug-of-choice.html

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  9. MC missed the point alright Tink.

    Said..."I would think that from his vantage point of enlightenment he would benignly let people believe what they want to, if that is what will make this short meaningless life better for them."

    MC rightous god believers burned people at stakes.Subdevided families,and have driven many people to dispair and even suicide.Some idiotic god believers even believe in 70 virgins and bombing people to death,

    And you have the complete stupidity an utter ignorance to suggest maybe we shouldnt be worried what people believe ??

    No it might actually be nice if a god did actually exist,maybe he might be able do us a bit of favor bother to smack his followers into line a little.

    You know ...Please please god ! can you please come save me from the harm of all your nasty wayword christians and muslims followers ....hmmmmm ..understand what im saying MC......Understand i dont fear god,i much more fear the actions of his mad ignorant nasty followers

    But sadly god obviously dont exist! because islamist and christians etc still keep on with many of the nasty domineering antics they always did

    L.o.L...get down off your high horse MC....drop that utterly silly pride !!.....Its not gods that worrys most atheists

    Its the idiots that believe in dreaming about what gods might be and expect, thats the real worry !

    And hey sunshine ...aint it a bloody great reason for "atheists promulgating their views vehemently, with a fervor that I can only describe as religious"

    Or would you suggest maybe it would be best we just sit by quietly like we have done, while you faithful keep on being the nasty curse like you have always been to this earth

    Said..."I would think that from his vantage point of enlightenment he would benignly let people believe what they want to"

    Guess thats why faithful on their vantage point are so inclined to poke their nose into matters like gay marriage or abortion etc....Benignly letting other people believe what they want huh? .....Practice what you preach much???

    MC why not atleast be a little honest and admit,it worrys you that you faithful are finally getting a smack down ! and getting put back in their place a little these days .Demoted from the domineering to the domineered ...as the tables turn

    And guess what....we only just getting started !

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  10. Gandopolis

    I will let Crusty speak for himself, but as for me I've been so busy at work lately that I haven't had time to bomb anything, and it's been months since I have burned a witch at the stake.

    You also touched on something that I read the other day on an atheist site. She said one of the reasons she left Christianity was because Christians weren't living up to Christ's teachings. And now you say you kinda wish their was a god to keep his people in line.

    You can tell me what you think, but it sounds like a lot of you denounce Christianity, not because of what Christ teaches, but how Christians act? And that would make you all as big as hypocrites as us?

    When I read Crusty's response, I see a guy who realizes he as guilty as everyone else, but because of his faith in Christ he has been set free. yet you see his response as arrogant, prideful and ignorant.

    As far as the tables are being turned? I'm fine with that. I wish they would have started to turn years ago. I don't need the comfort of numbers to bring me to a relationship with the Lord. As a matter of fact if we were looked down upon more like the early church, maybe some of you guys would consider Christianity an option for yourselves? If one person would turn their life to Christ because Christians were being persecuted more, God knows I'd take whatever it was they wanted to dish out on me.

    The fact that it is only "just getting started" is nothing but a sign of the times? And time is running out. Someone who puts his faith in Christ wont even blink at a statement like that.

    The Bible teaches that Satan is the prince of this world. But it also tells the Christian that greater is he in you, than he that is in the world. Atheists may be tired of being treated like 2nd class citizens(?) but Christians should expect it.

    I have to go, I haven't bashed any gays in while either, I probably need to go do that before church on Sunday?

    G, you may have inspired my next post? Please check in soon and see?

    Peace squared, feeno

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  11. Honestly, and I mean this with no disrespect at all to you Feeno...

    But, why don't you all kill yourselves if your afterlife is so good? What incentive is there to be alive/

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  12. TB 13, great question Tink. I will give you my response straight from the heart. #1. I don't believe it's up to me to end any life, even my own. #2. I love my life here on earth, and feel God has blessed me with good friends and a great family. #3. This life is but a vapor, here for a little while, then poof, it vanishes. So I can be patient. #4. Not to sound to full of myself, but I'm working here on Earth to hopefully make an eternal impact on other peoples lives.

    You know the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Philippians says "To live is Christ, but to die is gain". he knew he had things to do before he died. But if he was going to be killed for his beliefs, then he counted that as gain. Or even better than living here on Earth.

    As much as I love life, I'm not scared of death, that will be my reward.

    Remember Tink, you could never offend me. Maybe hurt my feelings a little, but I'm a big boy with broad shoulders and will get over it.

    Peace, feeno

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  13. MC-

    It seems that you presume that protest implies striking nerves? Perhaps this is the catalyst for why people may be compelled to protest, but if something is sound, then it needn't be contested.

    Indeed, I feel anything that raises more questions than allows answers for must be questioned. Anything which is blatantly unsound, however, must be contended, otherwise you are left with an uncritical view and therefore your opinion isn't worth much. Most Christians I know, and I've known my fair share, are uncritical and unthinking when it comes to their faith.

    Therefore I feel compelled to protest when they claim certain things are the "God given facts" and tells me that if I don't fall in line that I'll burn forever in Hell. Why the hollow threats? Are they really worried some little atheist is going to be lost forever? Or do they just like to state it because it makes them feel superior? And if so, what does this say about their character?

    Might we ask, if we are to heed their tyrannical rants, what is the fate of all the nonbelievers? The billions of Hindus, Muslims, Jews, scientists and other non-believers... all sent to hell? From Plato to Aristotle to Spinoza to Einstein to Ghandi to Hume to Thomas Jefferson to Captain Kirk of the Starship Enterprise, it seems like Hell is going to be the place to be if you ask me!

    Heaven is going to be a lonely place filled with virgin nuns, a few zealots, and a hand full of Bible thumpers. Rather, I think it's like Mark Twain said, "Heaven is for the climate, Hell is for the society."

    Feeno-

    I would suggest my advocacy is dogmatic rationalism. Religion itself requires doctrine, atheists have no doctrine, and as I stated before, if I have a religion is would be like that of Thomas Paine who espoused, "My religion is to do good."


    Mostly us unbelievers are left with an inverse psychology of the religious mode of thinking--having been so indelibly stamped onto our psyche that it has become an unavoidable neurosis. That's why we become fundamental in our rebuttals to religious apologetics. That isn't to say the contra-arguments aren't without merit, they are worth considering, but it can sometimes appear that we're trying too hard to "debunk" religion.

    I find myself moving beyond that phase to a post-theist stance. I have noticed, however, that many atheists who have never have much religion in their lives never go through this phase unless they are being directly forced by religious pressures to retreat into a defensive style of argumentation.

    The bottom line is, however, when it comes to concepts as puerile as eternal damnation in hell and the reward of forgiveness upon pain of death, for the price of one's obedience and submission, I do find such surf mentality something to protest.

    Thus advocacy becomes an important part of informing others of different perspectives and opening up new avenues of discussion.

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  14. Tristan D. Vick said... "MC-

    It seems that you presume that protest implies striking nerves? Perhaps this is the catalyst for why people may be compelled to protest, but if something is sound, then it needn't be contested. "

    MC-->Ohh boo hoo but but Tristan,traditionally non believers always used to be relegated to the position of being seen but not heard.Us theists said what ever we wished, and non believers were always expected to except it.If they didnt it could only ever be because we theist were right,because us proud theist are so sure we could never ever be wrong.

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  15. Feeno said..."You can tell me what you think, but it sounds like a lot of you denounce Christianity, not because of what Christ teaches, but how Christians act? And that would make you all as big as hypocrites as us?"

    Why what have i said that would make you think that Feeno?.You didnt post whatever gave you that idea,but anyway no thats no far from being the only reason at all.I feel ive seen no good reason to believe in a god and plenty of reasons so far to suggest it very likely no gods exist.

    Feeno said..."When I read Crusty's response, I see a guy who realizes he as guilty as everyone else, but because of his faith in Christ he has been set free. yet you see his response as arrogant, prideful and ignorant. "



    MC had said..."I would think that from his vantage point of enlightenment he would benignly let people believe what they want to"

    And


    "I don't know if this applies to you. Perhaps you have just come to the sober conclusion that God does not exist and you are fine with that. But I am convinced that there are many self-professed atheists who profess it very loudly, not because they are convinced, but because it is their strong preference that God not exist, and they need to convince everyone including themselves that this is so."

    Feeno we live in a world where arrogant christians like the pope dont seem to give a damm about caring about putting matters right with regards to the many who were molested,because they put the pride of the church first.

    In a world where it only took 150 years for Darwin to finally rather begrudgenly receive an apology,not that its in time for him to hear it.

    In a world where i personally have first hand knowledge of ongoing heartbreak, broken families,sexual abuse that been covered up,and many suicides caused by the church we were born into and never had any choice about joining.

    In a world where im damm sure this church abuse is far more widspread than we yet have full knowledge of.

    In a world where so called Jesus lovers from so called more caring churches offer us pitiful sorrys but take no real actions either themsekves towards seeing that matters get sorted much quicker.

    And MC tells us... he feels from our vantage point of enlightenment we should benignly let people believe what they want to ??

    And MC tells us....I am convinced that there are many self-professed atheists who profess it very loudly, not because they are convinced, but because it is their strong preference that God not exist, and they need to convince everyone including themselves that this is so

    And then you Feeno tell me.... "When I read Crusty's response, I see a guy who realizes he as guilty as everyone else, but because of his faith in Christ he has been set free. yet you see his response as arrogant, prideful and ignorant"

    He MC feels this "set free" you suggest hmmmmm?? and likely you are feeling this "set free" thingy too i suppose hmmm?

    Well aint that jolly lovely for ya both.

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  16. But do either of you ever stop to considder and care about others suffering church abuse every single day being set free from their earthly abuse??

    And so tell me why i should have any real good reason to even slightly believe a god would exist and let this abuse carry on while so called caring loving godly liberal church folk like you folk seem to turn such a blind eye to it??

    And then please explain why its not some arrogance for MC to try and suggest from my vantage point of enlightenment maybe i should be expected to benignly let people believe what they want to ??

    And that supposedly i must "profess it very loudly, not because they are convinced, but because it is their strong preference that God not exist, and they need to convince everyone including themselves that this is so" ???

    And then tell me why you think i should be so traditionally meek mild and quiet like a good little non believer who for so many bloody years used to always be.... while all this abuse simply kept carrying on and on and on ...while we non believers made sure to bow down to theists making sure we were seen but not heard ?

    Did somebody tell you us atheists were trying to pretend we was a reicarnation of Jesus or something ???

    Tell me Feeno, do you really honestly agree with MC that maybe we non believers actually have no good reasons for maybe getting a little irate and speaking up?

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