Tuesday, February 23, 2010

Who's opening for Jesus tonight?

Why doesn't God just do a bunch of miracles today, so skeptics will finally believe?
Would it matter to you if he did?
And if so what kind of miracle would you like to see?

Sometimes I say to myself, "If God did go around doing miracles all the time, everyone would certainly believe?

But I'm not so sure it would make that big of a difference. Early on in Jesus' ministry and before he pissed off the Religious rulers of the day, He was a Rock Star. He drew huge crowds wherever He went. He had 12 roadies, everyone thought he was da bomb, He had many groupies and they all wanted to see his next show.

The problem with this was that many of these people came to Him to see a healing, a raising from the dead, a feeding of a crowd with just a few fish, they wanted to see some sort of miracle. Not actually listen to what he was saying.

Do you all remember the story when Jesus looks at some crippled dude laying on a mat being dragged around by 4 of his buds? Jesus says to him "take heart son, your sins are forgiven". Then a bunch of the religious teachers were saying to each other "Blasphemy! This man talks as if he were God. So Jesus tells them "OK dorks, would it be easier for me to say your sins are forgiven or get up and walk? So then Jesus tells the cripple to "get up, pick up your mat, and go home". And of course, dude did. Although many believed some did not. And this just made the religious teachers and rulers even madder at Him.

Would a miracle change the way you feel about God?

Dueces, feeno

25 comments:

  1. From an anonymous blogger (not me)

    "atheists can only think in terms of 'hey cosmic slave, if you really are God, I demand you...appear right now under my microscope for proper study"

    Maybe the bar is set just a little bit higher than that. There are a number of things we all agree with that cannot be proven by the scientific method. God on the other hand, entails certain other matters that go along with belief in Him that things like logical and mathematical truths do not. I think thats the main stubling block for atheists.

    That and only reading one side of arguments for the supposed non-existance of God and not entertaining the arguments of the best of the best in the field of apologetics in favor of His existance.

    ReplyDelete
  2. It's a stumbling block for me all right, JD, because although I have my suspicions I'm not sure what you're on about. "Certain other matters"?

    In answer to the direct question, Feeno, yes. A verified miracle would be worth a lot more in today's world than in Jesus' time, because although the verification itself would take ages if done properly, it would stick. There'd be enough unambiguous evidence and documentation of some kind of supernatural entity (or God specifically, depending on the miracle) that the scientific mainstream and the public majority would accept it. There might not be any fewer arguments, but they'd change from apologetic vs skepticism to competing theologies.

    You wouldn't see all atheists convert, but those who still called themselves atheists would do so for the kinds of reasons some apologists think all atheists profess nonbelief: hatred of God, fear of personal responsibility and other personal agenda.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Certain other matters? I meant like the need for a saviour that some atheists are too proud to realize.

    Being held accountable for all manner of sins not commonly considered by atheists like sins that occur in our minds with our thoughts and arent actually acted upon, and sins of ommission (things you should have done, but didnt) are other examples off the top of my head.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Yes, I thought you meant the accountability thing. While I agree with Sartre that each of us is ultimately responsible for all of our actions and thoughts, whether each of us will be held accountable for every one of them after death is not as abstract a question and is contingent on the existence of an afterlife and a judge. When used in arguments for or against same, therefore, the idea is no more than an appeal to consequences.

    Accepting the need for a saviour is different from accepting the existence of one. There are some atheists who wish Christianity were true, and thus accept the former but not the latter.

    ReplyDelete
  5. For many years i prayed and prayed and hoped with all my heart, for a miracle of god changing the abuse and hearts of members of the abusive christian cult i had been born into.I know many others also prayed and hoped for the same thing their whole life time,and many still do.

    It was experiencing and observing the (absolute non existance) of any sign of involvment of gods anywhere in these matters, that slowly helped me over time to see enough to put 1+1 together, and realize gods simply cant help much! when they dont even exist.

    Even now.

    1, If im frustrated experiencing and observing blatant inhumane ammounts of what seems very slow change, with regards to laws surrounding faith freedoms, that in many places continue to allow for faith-abuse to continue to happen.

    2,And yet also notice how quickly change can actually happen so very fast! with regards to other matters like abortion or gay marriage etc.

    Im always reminded! obviously its simply because no gods actually exist or are involved in the process.Im reminded the only intervention observed, ONLY ever shows any sign of a very human nature .Never any more!?

    There is not even any sign of any "devine guidence"?? showing that can even be seen and measured to be happening!, so you might as well simply forget the likelyhood of actually seeing any god miracles.Gods are so impotent and non existant,they cant even display themselves amongst their own followers

    Proving how much more likely! the bible is to be no more than myth infused in history .

    F..."He was a Rock Star"

    Yeah Feeno, kinda a lot like a olden style Benny Hinn

    ReplyDelete
  6. @ feeno: I have very few objections to the words of Jesus. Other than the very idea of God itself, I cannot off the top of my head think of too many instances where I flat out disagree with a quote attributed to him. I think you'd be better off if you did not sell your cloak to buy a sword, though, since those who take the sword shall die by the sword...

    Miracles might make me believe in God, but thic brings me to my fundamental point. You should know before I make this statement, I realize how it can be perceived. I firmly believe I act almost identically to Jesus. I do not personally model my actions after him, but we have a lot of the same qualities. We can't stand the rich or the established religious powers of our times. We usually walk barefoot or in sandals, have long hair, beards, befriend prostitutes... We both verbally engage those we disagree with. We both have anger issues (I'm down with flipping a table in a temple and then using a whip to drive the fools out). Sadly I cannot heal anyone... but I would kill the the ability (irony?).

    So what would miracles do? They might make me believe in a God, but I don't know how it would change my actions. I'm not out having gay sex or getting abortions as it is, nor would I be out tryign to stop others if tomorrow I was Christian. I would have the decency to know it's not my soul committing the sin, that it is not for me to judge, and that my responsibility on this earth is to console and comfort, not chide and belittle. There's not a gay person or woman in America who doesn't know the Christian stance on those issues, we don't need to remind them on a daily basis.

    @ JD: I've read the best of Christian apologetics, from Saint Augustine of Hippo to C.S. Lewis. I don't even know why they call it apologetics, it's not like they ever apologize for anything Christianity has done, they just justify it. They should call it Christian justifetics.

    ReplyDelete
  7. If I saw a miracle, how would I know for sure that it was in fact a miracle, and not some Hollywood-type special effect?

    How would I know it's not just some advanced technology that I'm not familiar with?

    If I could know for sure that a genuine divine miracle took place, yes, I would believe. But the problem would be to convince me that it was divine and not some advanced technology.

    So I guess, I would still be skeptical, because I probably wouldn't believe my eyes. I might think that I'm hallucinating.

    ReplyDelete
  8. A list of those who dazzled crowds with their magic, miracles, parables, and other wonders, but more importantly, who claimed to be the Jewish Messiah!

    Almost all of them, if not most of them, accomplished a few of the same miracles that Jesus did. A few of them even died and were, apparently, resurrected(!) Others brought people back to life. Many were virgin born (no surprise there). It seems such conjuring and sorcery was common fair, a form of sensationalist entertainment and spectacle, to wow crowds. Nothing could be more ubiquitous than miracle working in superstitious cultures. The more supernaturally inclined the more readily they accept any old Joe-Shmoe with a messiah complex, a perfect breeding ground for religion, today as well as in times of antiquity. The credulous remain credulous.

    • Simon of Peraea (ca. 4 BC)
    • Athronges (ca. 3 BC)
    • Judas of Galilee (?)
    • Jesus of Nazareth (ca. 4 BC — AD 30-?)
    • Theudas (? - 46)
    • Menahem ben Judah (?)
    • Agrippa II
    • Vespasian, c.70
    • Simon bar Kokhba (?- ca. 135)
    • Moses of Crete (?)
    • Ishak ben Ya'kub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani (684-705)
    • Yudghan (?)
    • David Alroy (?)
    • Nissim ben Abraham (?)
    • Moses Botarel of Cisneros (?)
    • Asher Lemmlein (?)
    • David Reubeni (1490-1541?)
    • Solomon Molcho (1500-1532)
    • Sabbatai Zevi (1626-1676)
    • Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba)
    • Jacob Querido (?-1690)
    • Mordecai Mokia (1650-1729)
    • Löbele Prossnitz (?-1750)
    • Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791)
    • Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902-1994)
    Christian Messiahs and those who claimed to be the second coming of Jesus. Seems the rock concert is still going! Bunch of hippies!!
    • Simon Magus and Dositheos the Samaritan[10], mid first century
    • Montanus
    • Adalbert powers circa 744.
    • Tanchelm of Antwerp (ca. 1110)
    • Ann Lee (1736-1784)
    • Bernhard Müller (c.1799-1834)
    • John Nichols Thom (1799-1838)
    • Arnold Potter (1804–1872)
    • Hong Xiuquan of China (1812-1864)
    • Bahá'u'lláh (1817-1892)
    • William W. Davies (1833–1906)
    • Father Divine / George Baker (c. 1880 – September 10, 1965)
    • Georges-Emest Roux (1903-1981)
    • Sun Myung Moon (b. 1920)
    • Yahweh ben Yahweh (1935-2007)
    • Iesu Matayoshi (b. 1944)
    • Jung Myung Seok (b. 1945)
    • Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda (b. 1946)
    • Inri Cristo (b. 1948)
    • Apollo Quiboloy (b. 1950)
    • David Icke (b. 1952)
    • David Koresh (Vernon Wayne Howell) (1959-1993)
    • Maria Devi Christos (b. 1960),
    • Sergei Torop (b. 1961)
    • Wayne Bent (b. 1941)
    • David Shayler (b. 1965)
    • Laszlo Toth

    On an aside, I love Simon Magus. He got into a fight with Peter because he was claiming to be the second coming of Christ just days after Jesus died by crucifixion! And to take Peter on head to head in public and say I’m your dead master re-embodied, and to actually think he’d get away with it, just goes to show how gullible most people were back then. They’d believe almost anything. Apparently it didn’t work, and Peter wasn’t too amused.

    See Feeno—if you’d study Christian history more you’d know all kinds of fun trivia like this! But the thing is, when Jesus miracles and magic is juxtaposed with those who came before him as well as after, there is no distinguishable difference. The name changes, the content remains the same. So a real miracle today would be necessary as proof that Jesus was the real deal, and not just another doppelganger, huckster, and fraud. Otherwise, he just blends into the scenery… with a bunch of Joe-shmoe-messiah-wannabes. No offense.

    ReplyDelete
  9. @Ginx

    I disagree with some of Jesus' words and teachings. Quite strongly actually.

    http://advocatusatheist.blogspot.com/2009/11/imperfect-and-immoral-teachings-of.html

    ReplyDelete
  10. T-Vick

    What does this list of derelicts prove? That many people have claimed to be the Messiah. You didn't have to study church history to figure that out. You could have just read your Bible. the Apostles were always warning and teaching the early church about false prophets and claims like these. Read the book of Acts and you'll find some cat called Bar-Jesus who said he was the Messiah.

    Having said that I'm quite familiar with several of these dudes, but I just can't place the miracles they performed? Maybe when David Koresh was walking on water I was at that intersection waiting for the light to turn green as Sun Myung Moons freaks were trying to sell me some carnations?

    Why are Atheists so gullible to accept some obscure writings by someone, yet if a Believer makes a similar claim they wont even consider the source until 3 separate Professors their Momma and an act of congress verifies that there might have been someone who wrote something like that?

    Your boy Simon of Peraea never even claimed to be the Messiah. He lived around the time of Christ and about a hundred years ago they found one document that mentioned a Simon that had a couple similarities to what Christ claimed. And nobody is even sure if this is the same Simon that Josephus wrote about.

    This is why I believe Atheists have to try so hard to convince themselves that the Christian God just can't be real. If Josephus says that there was some dude called the Christ, who did many great feats, he was followed around by many people who claimed he rose from the grave after 3 days. And they were of noble character etc. Then you guys say this writing is obviously a forgery.

    Then you find one obscure writing about someone that might be someone who might have claimed to be the Messiah, and you swallow it hook, line and sinker.

    Jesus doesn't need smoke and mirrors to perform miracles. He created the entire universe and everyone of those false prophets you mentioned. Many of whom were very evil, very ruthless and in several cases mentally deranged.

    That's why people don't put up Christmas lights when David Alroy's birthday rolls around every year.

    And your right about your list being filled with Huckster's and frauds. (don't know what a doppelganger is, but I like that word), anyways, so as well versed as you are, you are going to stand by your claim, that Jesus does not stand out from this list, which most people, whether they studied church history or not, have never even heard of? My, my, my.

    Good luck Mr Phelps, and I'' talk to ya soon.

    Peace, feeno

    ReplyDelete
  11. Hi Feeno i dont see why its got anything much to do with needing to swallow things hook line and sinker.

    Its so much more about (noticing the pattern) we can see that humans have always made many extra ordainary claims,and many "messiahs" were around long before young Jesus even started kicking stones around the hillsides.

    Feeno..."you are going to stand by your claim, that Jesus does not stand out from this list, which most people, whether they studied church history or not, have never even heard of? My, my, my."

    Maybe Benny Hinn stands stands out alot further from todays modern list too,does this prove him as the honest messiah?

    Ive heard reports Islam has become very popular even in England now,does that prove Mohammad?.

    Feeno i think you overlook some of what Tristans explaining.He never suggested a need to swallow anything hook line and sinker,he was just pointing out what history shows us is very obvious.There has always! been messiah after messiah after messiah ,some suggest the world will end on certain dates,others promise to return after death but never do

    If the Simon of Peraea cult was lucky enough to be the one that happened to become most popular and most documented etc,for sure you would likely just the same in such faith to be here defending that dude instead of some unpopular Jesus cult leader.

    Your faith is built on popularity,just like Benny Hinn followers of today have faith in the popular Benny Hinn.Your whole arguement of why was Jesus so well known etc,is no different than in a few hundred years time future Benny Hinn followers asking why Benny Hinn was seen as more popular and as doing more miracles?, than ole Harvey Burnett ever did.

    Feeno.."You could have just read your Bible. the Apostles were always warning and teaching the early church about false prophets and claims like these"

    Well hello ... there was already likely very many false prophets and Messiahs around everywhere! even way back then....So what kind of warning was it? ...Some prophet,heck it was simply that obvious its likely kids at the kindergarten could even have put 2+2 together.

    Thats the thing Feeno,in my opinion faithful folks are so tuned into faith and the idea of miracles,something written in a faith book suggested as being some kind of miracle,is "faithfully" seen as a miracle, even when it actually ammounts to little more than use of some simple logic and common sense.

    Feeno..."Jesus doesn't need smoke and mirrors to perform miracles. He created the entire universe and everyone of those false prophets you mentioned"

    This is only an assertion you make here,the same assertion that very many others have made.An assertion that over the years has caused need of some folks to be segregated and shunned.Caused devision and death and wars.

    You might say Gandolf you make assertions too because you cannot prove there is no gods.

    I would agree i cannot prove no gods exist.

    But i would disagree that im actually involved in making any assertions .Because the agnostic/atheist position waits for proper evidence!,its mostly simply against people making faith assertions.

    It realises the historic (grave dangers and suffering) that have often been involved in the past of people guessing gods.

    This is what many faithful just really dont get!,when their faith manipulates them into the propaganda feuled thinking and "wrongfully" convicting non believers, of simply having hatered of gods.

    Seems the faithful type philosophy is its supposedly much more noble to take pot shot guesses at ideas of gods,than it is to be careful and look for real evidence first! before such important decisions are made.

    Faiths are a lot like Russian Roulette

    ReplyDelete
  12. I see many people use quotes whenever they can. What's the deal with it? Shouldn't we talk about what we think, feel and believe instead of what others do?
    Regarding the question about miracles, would you respect me more if I was convinced I saw a miracle and because of that I started believing in God? It looks stupid to me, and if there is one, I get why he doesn't do that.
    The thing is, even if there was a god, would it really matter to me? I mean, shouldn't we be more concerned about trying to do our best to improve the here and now, instead of leaving it to someone/something else? The problem is that the idea of gods as we know it is a human conception. So even those who believe in one can't know for sure it's really as they think. But still, that doesn't stop them from doing what they believe is right (not always at least). If there is one, would he like to be worshiped? Would he want us blame him for good things and bad things sometimes?
    I don't see the need to believe in a god for me, nor do I think there is one. I get it why many people have faith in one, I just find good experiences from somewhere else. But I have the feeling to want to help humanity. Am I naive? Recently a friend told me something like this:
    -The thing is I experience this and find it amazing. I have good experiences with it and seeing the good it does to me, I want to show this to others (such as me in this case).

    That's admirable, and I could probably say the same thing. However, I'm aware my life was very different from his. To me, it's okay. I don't find it "cold" as many say not to believe in anything after, I find it beautiful. But I know some people wouldn't feel like that. That's why I don't try to convince anyone. This is not a bad thing. Differences are good. Because you see something good in one thing, doesn't mean it's correct but it also doesn't mean you're wrong.

    However, people nowadays get angry easily. They take it personal. they can't enjoy a nice chat about stuff.

    I keep thinking that religion (or perhaps lack of it as well) escapes a commom saying.
    REgarding it, it becomes: the grass is always greener where I stand.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Al

    You are very wise for such a young man. I agree with you about people converting just because they saw a miracle, not that impressive. Also I can appreciate your friend for at least trying to be admirable. I also agree with you about why we can't just talk about these issues and respect the other sides position. I have seen Christians and Atheists both behaving badly in that area.

    But there is one thing I hear many Atheists claim, and you just brought up that I think is a giant misconception. You said "shouldn't we try our best to improve the here and now". Maybe I'm naive but why can't we do both? Some Atheists believe that this is their only life so why not live it to it's fullest? I am living my life to it's fullest and I happen to enjoy my relationship to God.

    As a matter of fact, I'm gonna go get me a breakfast taco, wash it back with a cold bottle of coke and thank Jesus.

    Dueces, feeno

    ReplyDelete
  14. It's not that being religious stops you from improving the here and now altogether, Feeno. It's just that unless your god is real, all the time and effort you put into your church would be better spent elsewhere. It's a resource hog which may well not be worth it.

    ReplyDelete
  15. LX

    Unless of course our efforts at the church are targeted to help the world?

    Late, feeno

    ReplyDelete
  16. F..."I agree with you about people converting just because they saw a miracle, not that impressive."

    Feeno the bible discusses turning water into wine,a few loaves of bread fed many ,and vigin births and raising from the dead etc.The bibles riddled with lots of magic and miracles.Talking snakes and donkeys,all sorts

    Was it because Jesus liked to lure people with ways that were not that impressive,even though it worked ?.No miracles/magic have always been a big part of religion.

    Some faithful even sacrificed children,and it was believed by many to be a miracle when it began to rain and eased the drought.

    Benny Hinns bank balance is as large as it is,because people are impressed by his magic/miracles also.

    But i do agree it really is a very silly reason to believe,slight of hand well preformed and rehearsed magic tricks etc, have been fooling many folks for years.And people that follow without demanding scientific proof,must be crazy.

    But still if science tested the magic and proved a miracle,then that honestly would be very impressive and confirming.And theres good reasons humans need to confirm things.One reason is so we know who the magicians simply pulling tricks to fool us are!,otherwise we could get fooled by anyone! and led up the garden path believing everything and not finding whos the true honest messiah.

    The ammount of miracles documented in the bible scripture suggests gods were not ever against miracles being displayed freely.

    This stands to good reason.Otherwise,how else would the followers have known they follwed the real messiah?, without display of these miracles that could then be processed by people minds so they knew for sure then it to really honestly be a true sign of gods.

    So if gods exist, the only good reason left why gods might no longer provide us proper miracles we can test.Could be because they have decided they wanted to make matters harder and not supply us good evidence,preferring to leaves us lost as to who god really is and in grave danger of easily following many complete fraudsters who know nothing about the real god themselves.

    And if punishment or hell is a place for all those who dont know god or believe in the wrong god,well its about god tempting humans fate.A trickster type god.A mean god who hides himself,and then punishes those who end up not knowing him.

    Or its most likely gods dont exist,which is why so far we see no real scientific proof of their actual existence.

    ReplyDelete
  17. F...."Maybe I'm naive but why can't we do both? Some Atheists believe that this is their only life so why not live it to it's fullest? I am living my life to it's fullest and I happen to enjoy my relationship to God."

    I fully understand you enjoy your relationship with god Feeno,and to be honest im kinda glad you do.Im not against people enjoying a relationship with god.

    But tell me how do you suggest some sick kid born to JWs who refuse blood transfusions should go about living life to the fullest?...Should they just dream and try to imagine what Feeno`s life lived to the fullest would be like,if they happened to be lucky enough to win the russian roulette game of life and be BORN into a faith like he was?.

    What does some African kid getting hunted down after being accused as a witch do to live his life to the fullest,think of what Feeno`s been up to lately?.

    What does some kid BORN to some westbro hate church do to live life to the fullest,when he`s been fed fears of dammnation and hellfire since birth.....Think about how happy Feeno is about faith?.

    Feeno do you really realise the real type (hell on earth) the idea of continued promotion of faith "without regulation",happens to deliver to certain groups of humans born on this earth?.

    The very existence of "unregulated faith" on this earth, removes certain peoples right to live life to the fullest.I can testify to this phenomena.Look on the internet you`ll even see (many people) discussing how their own family disowned them,once they found out they were atheist.

    This doesnt do much to aid people,in "living life to the fullest".Family is important!.You know it!, remember those family outings out into the hills throwing axes and shooting targets

    I dont mind you enjoying your relationship with god Feeno.

    But what i find hard to understand is why you dont really seem to understand or care so much, that the belief you happen to promote that at present is still very "unregulated" also happens to cause a lifetime of hell for so very many others.

    Yes im a agnostic/atheist i believe this is the only life we have,but due to promotion of faith and luck that i were born to a strict christian faith that practices extreme shunning and excommunication.Family life was devided and some lives were even lost through suicide.

    Sure i do my best to make the most of life i can,But Feeno can you please explain how you had imagined and envisioned it was possible me and those African kids getting hunted down as witches,were really honestly supposed to live our lives to the fullest?

    ReplyDelete
  18. G

    I probably could have said that better about "not that impressive". I was agreeing with LX that if it takes great feats being displayed before people will believe, then LX could be right, God wouldn't be that impresses.

    However the miracles Christ and the Disciples performed were to authenticate who Jesus claimed to be. The Messiah.

    The Bible clearly teaches that one must have faith to please God. So if we were to see miraculous events taking place all the time, we'd have to ask ourselves where is our faith.

    Jesus once told his Disciples you have seen me and believed. How much greater it is for those who haven't seen me, yet still believe.

    ==============================================

    G

    As far as living life to the fullest is concerned
    there may be many people whose religious bondage keeps them from enjoying all the liberties and freedoms we are allowed to enjoy. But my reply is the same, "Why can't you have it both ways?

    Religion is man made, created by men. We need to hold people accountable for their actions no matter what their religious beliefs. You tell me that your glad for me that I enjoy my relationship with the Lord, yet you want me to feel bad about the fact that there are witch burnings in Africa.

    Is it fair for me to ask that we do away with all thought processes except for Christianity because in many parts of the world Christian missionaries are being killed for their faith?

    What do you propose we do about this. People have got to think for themselves. I wish it was as easy is just outlawing anything that causes conflicts. Things like Co-workers, family, friends, enemies, traffic jams and rude drivers, the Olympics, especially hockey. Or how about all of them crazy ass Soccer matches that people fight over? Those are the little ones. Then we can start on race wars, political regimes, and the power hungry people who oppress the poor for their gain?

    Tell me G, How do we eliminate pain and suffering in the world?

    Mother Teresa once said (And I'm paraphrasing) "we can't do great things, but we can do small things with love".

    Mother Teresa tried to eliviate pain in a hurting world. She gave her life for it. She wanted nothing in return. Her "fame" was an emberassment to her.

    Attack her Christianity, not the freaks running around Africa burning people at the stake or losers over here who would let their children die without proper medical treatment, when God
    has made available Doctors and hospitals.

    pt1

    ReplyDelete
  19. pt2

    And you don't have to be an Atheist or a Christian to feel bad about all the suffering and injustices in the world. Only sociopaths would be void of those concerns.

    Why can't we have it both ways? In between our church festivals and fish fries and pot-luck dinners and all of our gatherings we some how manage to feed, clothe, house and provide medical treatment for millions and millions of people every year. And no matter how hard you want to say "yeah, but only if those people will convert to Christianity" is just plain wrong. It might make you feel better about yourself (not neccasarily you G, just those that say this) and it might be the case, but in a very, very small percentage.

    Christians can't save anyone, were taught to live like Jesus. Show the love of Christ with our lives, then the let the Holy Spirit convict them, then Christ will save them. If we feed the poor some will see that and their heart will turn to God, some wont. Where ever Jesus went and taught, some believed, some didn't.

    I'm just rambling now, sorry

    peace out, feeno

    ReplyDelete
  20. F.."The Bible clearly teaches that one must have faith to please God. So if we were to see miraculous events taking place all the time, we'd have to ask ourselves where is our faith."

    Feeno we still need evidence before we have proper faith.Its silly to think that it works any other way.Otherwise we would still see folks digging at the end of rainbows,faithful that gold could be found there.

    Or else why treat all those people in biblical times! to the exception of the rule?.Hell some of them (seeing all those miracles) are now not really such faithful followers right?,theres no faith in it because they actually saw the miracles for themselves!.

    Faithful?Frauds!..tut tut

    But without the miracles people would not ever have been so likely to believe would they.But still thats nothing new though, humans all need a certain ammount of evidence for things in our lives (its how we work),you dont continue to have so much faith your cars still out in the garage either, unless you go check it out now an then! to see its still there.This helps renew your faith in your car being out in the garage!.

    No evidence doesnt remove our faith of things in our lives,lack of evidence is what does.

    Suggesting it wouldnt be faith if people were exposed to evidence of miracles,i suggest is just a complete cop-out! another cover up story to keep an old story alive.

    Its like suggesting those that followed Jesus cannot have really been quite so faithful?.Pffffttt!!

    Folks who no longer believe that golds been buried at the end of rainbows,cannot have been so faith either!....But can you blame them?

    No humans brains are (wired) to need evidence,and thats not our fault.There is very good reasons for it too,it keeps us from danger! and being led up the garden path following idiots that dont know what they are talking about.If our brain were not wired this way,we would endlessly dig for gold at the end of rainbows, even though it was obvious it didnt even exist.

    Feeno my opinion is this reason given for supposedly why miracles are not seen.Is just an idea thought up by men trying to continue to disguise obvious flaws in the belief that was being taught.

    ReplyDelete
  21. F..."Why can't we have it both ways? In between our church festivals and fish fries and pot-luck dinners and all of our gatherings we some how manage to feed, clothe, house and provide medical treatment for millions and millions of people every year"

    Feeno all this statement tells us is there is a high (majority of christians) = "manage to feed, clothe, house and provide medical treatment for millions and millions of people every year"

    Please dont tell me you are having bigoted thoughts,that non believers dont care as much as believers do, are you?.

    If there was a (majority of non believers),it would then be the non believers = "manage to feed, clothe, house and provide medical treatment for millions and millions of people every year"

    Humans are humans Feeno.Its just as ignorant and just as ugly as it would be to try suggesting whites give more than blacks.There is more whites and more of them are better positioned to be able to give...So what? ....Does this mean the black person is any less than the white? ...No

    And its just as much crap to try suggesting faithful are more caring and giving than non faithful.

    In my opinion...Its just old bullshit bigoted ignorant ugly retoric and propaganda passed on by faithful bigots.

    Without faith people could still organise gatherings and find reasons to get together,there is no reason the need stop charity.

    Infact i suggest less promotion of segregation through faith,could be a big benefit to our societies by being better role models for the commuinity.The spin off might be it helps break down some more commuinity barriers and creates a more together adult type attitude that might be a better role model.

    We have gangs and devision,we have christian gangs and their devision

    Whos leading who?.Which ones the actual role model?

    Both the gang and the faith are involved in the bigoted attitude of needing to belong and be alined to some special group,outside of general humanity.

    What kind of role model for community is this honestly?.

    Christian want to suggest maybe gangs shouldnt practice the devise attitude that causes fights and problems between them,but still want to suggest maybe its quite ok the faithful do?

    ReplyDelete
  22. Unless of course our efforts at the church are targeted to help the world?

    Yes, depending on your definition of "help". To evangelicals, the best way to help people is to Save(tm) them, and that ultimately takes priority over material assistance. Unless the god is real, this is a misallocation of resources.

    ReplyDelete
  23. F..."Religion is man made, created by men. We need to hold people accountable for their actions no matter what their religious beliefs. You tell me that your glad for me that I enjoy my relationship with the Lord, yet you want me to feel bad about the fact that there are witch burnings in Africa."

    No you can please yourself whether you feel bad about it Feeno.Just as you can please yourself whether you wish to feel bad when drink driver laws were so lacking,many people got killed.And you can please yourself how you feel about abortion,but i think you should think about the hypocrisy involved in christians who are quite happy about being involved in helping make laws around abortion.But couldnt seem to really care less about helping make laws to see that folks dont get abused by peoples faith.

    If you feel bad about it,maybe its for a jolly good reason?....But its not my fault if you do Feeno.

    You say "We need to hold people accountable for their actions no matter what their religious beliefs"

    But yet your church and all the liberal churches down the road dont bother to do nothing about fixing unregulated religious abuse thats happening in FAITH CIRCLES ,no you feel your time and action is more worthwhile spent poking your nose into peoples rights to abortion or gay marriage etc.

    In other words people may kill folks in faith cults like johnstown,just so long as they dont do abortions and marry gay.

    You`ll be happy voting with regard to abortion and gay marriage etc,but when we discuss problems caused by unregulated faith,you feel a need to bring up these things like you did below.

    F..."I wish it was as easy is just outlawing anything that causes conflicts. Things like Co-workers, family, friends, enemies, traffic jams and rude drivers, the Olympics, especially hockey. Or how about all of them crazy ass Soccer matches that people fight over? Those are the little ones. Then we can start on race wars, political regimes, and the power hungry people who oppress the poor for their gain?

    Tell me G, How do we eliminate pain and suffering in the world? "

    So your answer is the old school yard,but he threw stones too!, waaaa woe is me trick.What is it with christians the way they seem to think,finding two wrongs somehow make something right?.

    Do you not think faithful folks deciding to be better role models THEMSELVES might be a great start?.

    None! of the conflicts you mention above even comes close to the ENDLESS SUFFERING many people suffer their whole lives due to continued promotion of unregulated faith.You even suggesting they do proves to me how uncaring it seems Jesus must be, that he would compare these things this way,when discussing matters that actually effect people (whole lives all day everyday).If you are following Jesus then you are telling me Jesus would compare the suffering folks suffered in johnstown,with traffic jams or a fight with a co worker.

    Feeno unregulated faith causes some peoples lives to be a complete nightmare that lasts a whole lifetime.

    What a sad day it is when the promoters of Jesus seem to suggest.Look mate we have "political regimes" and "race wars",so that then makes "faith abuse" just another stat we should be considdering is really quite ok.

    Jesus faith is only at the same level as political regimes and race wars?? ...l.o.l ...Expect nothing more of it !

    And i dont...Because i know it too well

    And these faithful have been the major (role models in all our societies)! for such a long time.

    Is it then really so surprising when parts of our societies start to seem to often to care so little?

    ReplyDelete
  24. Gandalonian

    In that riddled tongue lashing I just received you never mentioned what you think is a fair solution to your problem of: What to do about religion?

    late, feen

    ReplyDelete
  25. Feeno im honestly not against religion.Im only against it abusing folks.

    And to be honest i dont even think its so good for religion and faithful folk in general,that faith is able to be used by some folks as a way to cause abuse.

    Its never fun regulating folks,but humans need regulation otherwise drunk driving would still be quite legal also.And no doubt some drunk drivers dont like these regulations,but human rights to survival comes before human rights to drink drive and mame or kill.Dont it?

    Christian folk have no problem approaching government to seek regulation with regards to matters like abortion.

    I say its about time caring faithful gather their church folk together with other caring liberal church folk, and start campaigning governments to see these loopholes that allow for abuse get some change.

    Sure maybe some less liberal Christians wont like it.But neither do some drunk drivers like regulation laws against their drunk driving.These people feel it unfair,but should people be allowed to drive drunk and kill, or is it more fair that people are regulated as to how much they drink, helping lesson deaths caused by drunk drivers?.

    Why then does it matter if some abusive folks of faith are a little unhappy at regulation that makes faith abuse illegal.I dont care if drunk drivers hate me for supporting regulation that hopes to save death through drunk drivers,i dont need to be liked by drunk drivers who feel its their right to kill folks.

    Feeno sorry if it seemed like a tongue lashing,i admit this matter is very real for myself and im passionate about it.

    People who had problems with slavery and apartheid could not bring about change without use of some passion either.It just dont happen,sadly people dont always care to hear what they dont really want to.

    ReplyDelete