Wednesday, December 30, 2009

The Devil went down to Georgia

Atheists don't believe in God, and so then it would only make sense that they wouldn't believe in the Devil. But I have heard many Atheists say in the small chance there is a God/Devil and Heaven/Hell, they'd prefer to spend it away from God because he is such a maniacal monster. I guess God is not good enough for them?

But what if you were on the "crossroads" and that old sly Devil appears to you and offers you anything in the world for your soul, would you then finally denounce Satan and believe? Or do you take him up on his offer? And if you did take him up, what would you choose?

I was sharing this verse with Tink when this post came to mind, "What profiteth a man if he gains the whole world, yet loses his soul.. or.. what would a man give in exchange for his soul"?

Peace be with you all, my warmest and most sincere wishes for you all in 2010.
feeno

30 comments:

  1. Oh no.....

    I do not believe in the Devil. He is in the same league as Santa Claus, etc. We have always needed an evil figure to make us afraid and go to God. This question is completely irrelevant to me, much like If a genie comes to you and gives you three wishes what will they be? I do not believe in eternal life, nothing. I am food for worms.

    That being said, I did read the Satanic Bible when I was younger to try to understand why it angered Christians so much. It amused me, and it was a good read. Basically, do what you want, explore life to the fullest, etc.

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  2. The mind is its own place, and in itself
    255Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
    What matter where, if I be still the same,
    And what I should be, all but less than he
    Whom thunder hath made greater? Here at least
    We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
    260Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
    Here we may reign secure; and, in my choice,
    To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
    Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.

    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost_%281674%29/Book_I

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  3. But if you want my less than philosophical reply, if I ran into the Devil (for real) I'd shoot him in the face with that legendary Colt revolver with magic kill anything bullets. Right in the face! (For real)

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  4. Atheists say in the small chance there is a God/Devil and Heaven/Hell, they'd prefer to spend it away from God because he is such a maniacal monster

    I've encounterd this mindset before which I find to be unbelievably stupid. It's like 'If there happens to be a God, then it's absolutely impossible for an antithesis (but not equal) to exist and wreck havoc on our planet and it's people as clearly spelled out in JudeoChristian founding documents'. They would rather cling to quote-mined references that arent examined in their full context and would rather run into eternal damnation and from the God that would like to save them from such suffering and themselves.

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  5. JD-

    You say that with such certainty, as if the Euthyphro dilemma was never addressed or as if theodicy was never an issue.

    I think Feeno's thought experiment is a good one, although it neglects the origin of the Biblical Satan entirely, as it is more concerned with the scapegoat version of the conflated varieties of evil, symbolized in the figure of Satan, but a misrepresentation of what we know of the actual textual character.

    So if you want to talk about Satan the person, I can do that. But I think Feeno was getting at the deeper issues of good vs. evil in light of his Christian understanding of salvation.

    But like Thomas Aquinas I do not believe that Satan, should he exist, has any power over unbelievers as even their free will is safeguarded by a higher power. But this is opposed to Augustine's idea of Predestination, that God knows all and wills all, and that some will be damned and some will be saved, in which case, knowing the terrible outcome of nonbelievers, I would have to agree with Ricky Gervais when he asks, "Then why did God make me an atheist?"

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  6. Trust me, Tristan, he really believes in the fire and brimstone Lucifer. He would have no concept of the fallen angel who became the ultimate scapegoat. He really would not be able to understand much else. If the people who are "saved" on this planet are all rude, self righteous, and judgemental like him, I happily join the army of the damned. Just would be nice if they would all go away. How utopian of me.

    I also think that Feeno is struggling with something else, and I could be wrong. Are you also asking if you are offered the chance to have all that you want on earth in exchange for eternal damnation would you take it?

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  7. And, to continue with our traces back to mythology.

    What gods is Lucifer comparable to?

    Lucifer, in the form most accepted now and apart from any comparison with Satan, has parallels in various world religion. He is generally considered both a god of light and a bringer of knowledge.

    In Norse mythology he is comparable to both Loki and Baldur. Loki was a trickster, but a deeper understanding reveals his true role was to remind others of what they did not want to remember. His murder of Baldur was a clear and damning accusation that the gods were not immortal and had no right to play games and act indestructable. Baldur himself was a god of light.

    In Greek mythology, Lucifer is comparable to both Hermes and Apollo; Hermes because he was a messenger and a healer, and Apollo as a solar deity.

    In Egyptian mythology, Lucifer is similar to both Djehuty(Thoth) and Khepri; Djehuty as a messenger and god of knowledge, and Khepri as the rising sun and light of the dawn.

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  8. Tink

    You read the Satanic bible. Uh, King James version?

    T-Vick

    "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven".
    That is an interesting quote and no disrespect to you or to whomever said this, but that sounds like something a non-believer would say. Jesus says to be first in the Kingdom, you must be last. Christ himself didn't come to be served, but to serve.

    JD

    Good lookin' out, this site needs a "Dutch Uncle".

    Peace be with you, feeno

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  9. Anton Levey version. It was a good read. I was amused by it.

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  10. I'm more intrigued by what another god would have to offer. I'm not sure a fallen messenger is the way to go.

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  11. Feeno,

    John Milton, the author of Paradise Lost (that Tristan quoted), was most certainly a Christian. His views were a little unorthodox, but he certainly did believe. But I suppose that makes little difference...he could just have been a bad Christian :P

    As far as your original post, I really don't know. I don't have anything against God's character - I mean, I don't like the Old Testament God, but the God that Christians have eventually ended up with seems like a decent chap. All-loving is a must. Hell, on the other hand, kind of tarnishes his reputation, but there are Christians out there that don't believe in that. As long as that's the case, I'd be fine with the guy. I'm not sure I could enjoy heaven, though, if hell did exist. Anyway...

    So the devil appears. Well, assuming I had no reason to doubt my senses, like drugs or sleep deprivation or anything like that, yeah, I guess I'd probably believe in him. I'd need to see some sort of pyrotechnics, though...I wouldn't want to be fooled by some guy with a Halloween costume. As far as if I would take him up on his offer...well, I dunno. Seeing as he had the decency to actually show up, I might actually get the feeling that he might not be as bad as he's cracked up to be. I mean, hell, I spent a year as an emotional wreck searching for God, and he never bothered to show up. We're not really on speaking terms anymore. But I guess I wasn't really asking for the devil to show up...and yet he did anyway. Hmm.

    Heck, I think I'd go for the Faust route (the Goethe version, not any of the other multiple versions) and strike up a deal with the fellow.

    "Faust makes an arrangement with the devil: the devil will do everything that Faust wants while he is here on Earth, and in exchange Faust will serve the devil in Hell. Faust's arrangement is that if during the time while Mephistopheles is serving Faust, Faust is so pleased with anything the devil gives him that he wants to stay in that moment forever, he will die in that instant."

    Seems like it might be an interesting time at least. And Mephistopheles doesn't turn out to be a terrible fellow in the book. And heck, (spoiler alert....even though, jeez, it's almost 180 years old) Faust gets off on a technicality anyway. The devil thought he said he wanted to stay in the moment forever and killed him, but he didn't actually say that, and God takes him to heaven instead. So heck, I'd go the Faust route. Make a deal with the devil, get him to give me the premium package, and then trick the ol' sly dog and get a ticket into heaven after all. Sounds like a good way to go to me :D

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  12. he really believes in the fire and brimstone Lucifer. He would have no concept of the fallen angel who became the ultimate scapegoat

    Luciferian apologia. Who would have thought?

    this site needs a "Dutch Uncle"

    What the hell is a "Dutch Uncle"?

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  13. That coming from you is a compliment. Nevertheless, you are missing one key point here- THE DEVIL, LUCIFER, WHATEVER IS IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS THE EASTER BUNNY, THE TOOTH FAIRY, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

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  14. The Devil only kills 10 people in the Bible and it's in the book of Job, and worse than this, God bets him to do it! God makes himself an accomplice to Satan's measly 10 murders. But as I recall, God killed a LOT more for far less, hundreds of thousands if not millions.

    Satans murdering spree (sanctioned by God)is nothing to the mass murders of God himself. I mean, it's all in the Bible! And I don't buy this... because God's ways are different, and we can't understand them, and that he teaches through the toying of his creatures. As I stated above, those philosophical problems have been addressed and are weak at best.

    For a fun tally on how many God has killed, check this site out:

    http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-many-has-god-killed-revised.html

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  15. Tinkbell13 --" If the people who are "saved" on this planet are all rude, self righteous, and judgemental like him, I happily join the army of the damned. Just would be nice if they would all go away. How utopian of me."

    Yes Tink im afraid heaven would never seem like any heaven to me personally anyway, if it meant i needed to spent eternity as well !, with folks whos faith had split and divided us helped caused war and even have had suggestions of sacrificing and killing witches etc.

    Im not personally hateful of faithful,i have long understood it as really being more about ignorance rather than intention ...But still please when i die book me a ticket anywhere but where faithful folk happen to be.

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  16. Mark Twain quipped, "Heaven is for the climate, Hell is for the society."

    ;)~

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  17. Tinkbell,

    I always thought the Greek equivalent of Lucifer was Prometheus, who brought mankind knowledge of fire against Zeus' will and was punished for it. Because Zeus wanted to keep mankind ignorant as a slave race, and Prometheus wanted to free mankind by giving them knowledge. So in the story, Prometheus is the good guy, who only wants to give us knowledge and freedom, and Zeus is the evil one who wants to impose his laws upon us.

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  18. Yes, you are right. Christians are the only one who merged all of these mythos into one central character. There are traces of Satan in a number of Gods from many different cultures. When they canonized the people, they took an accumulation of archetypal myths from many cultures and personified them into people. That is why there is much overlap and similarities.

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  19. According to the Oxford Dictionary of World Mythology, expounds on Satan, explaining:

    "Belief in malevolent beings which haunt the air and the secret places of the earth stemmed from early man's instinctive fear of the unknown, the strange and frightening.

    In West Asia this common superstition expressed itself potently in a variety of ways: the Egyptians struggled against Ammut, the 'eater of the dead', and the serpent Apophis daily threatened the sun god Re; the Babylonians attributed sickness and misfortune to demonic attack, while at night men were endangered by Lilitu, a beautiful winged succubus; the Hebrews had to cope with a host of fallen angels under the crafty leadership of Satan and Beelzebub; the Arabs fought of the assaults of countless dijnn, 'hidden ones', inhabitants of the world before man; the Persians, the hardest pressed of all peoples, faced in the dreadful creations of Ahriman nothing less than absolute evil.

    It was the impact of Persian dualism on the Hebrews, after the Babylonian Exile, that led to the crystallization of the Devil in the form we recognize today."

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  20. Because it's relevant to defining Satan, I'll quote from part two of the Oxford Dictionary of Mythology also:

    "In the Old Testament the word Satan originally meant 'adversary', the supernatural being that Yahweh allowed to test Job, 'a perfect and an upright man'. But the idea of a spirit of evil was developed in apocryphal literature, especially the 'Book of Enoch', written down after 200 BC.

    The fall of Satan was explained in terms of envy; he was jealous of Adam and refused as 'a son of god' to pay him reverence and homage. Michael said he should worship 'the image of God' or face the wrath of Yahweh, but Satan and his followers refused. They were flung out of heaven, down to earth, and from that moment started the enmity between Satan and mankind.

    Other angels, however, fell earthward because of the sensual charms of the daughters of men. Thus did Shemhazai and Azazel, who fathered 'the wicked demon Asmodaeus', the Zoroastrian Aeshma. On the Day of Atonement the priests had to sacrifice a second ram. One scapegoat was for the sins of Israel, the other for Azazel. From the union of angels and women sprang the titans mentioned in Genesis, the giants who were drowned along with the 'corrupt' descendants of Adam in the flood."

    --How is this not myth? (I know Feeno's questions was getting at the moral issues behind the Devil's wager, but how anyone can think that Satan is real is beyond me. Evil is real; Satan, on the other hand, is entirely fictitious.)

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  21. Agreed.

    "Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." Richard Dawkins

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  22. Satan, but a misrepresentation of what we know of the actual textual character.

    Satan is referred to as a murderer, a liar, the father of all lies, and the destroyer. As one writer put it..

    "The essence of Christ's character is revealed in His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane: "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done" (Luke 22:42). Satan's attitude is diametrically opposite. Rather than submitting to God's perfect will, he became self-willed and determined to have his way at any cost. That attitude led to his initial rebellion against his Creator as described in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Regrettably, Satan has been remarkably successful at infusing a me-first, self-willed attitude among all human beings, with the one exception of Jesus, who perfectly resisted him."

    I don't think it could be any clearer that the Bible emphasizes that Satan is the opposite of God.

    The Devil only kills 10 people in the Bible and it's in the book of Job, and worse than this, God bets him to do it

    This is incorrect. Might you like to peruse Job Chapter 1 and revise your numbers?

    Certainly God permits his servants to be tested. This is not in dispute. It's Satan's idea initially to put Job to the test, not God's.

    as I recall, God killed a LOT more for far less, hundreds of thousands if not millions.

    Were these people just sitting around, eating Bon-Bons, doing charity work and discussing secular humanistic altruism at the time they were killed or were ther other factors involved? Please specify whom you are referring to.

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  23. JD argues with us in a manner that suggests that the Bible is the credible evidence.... He thinks that it has weight. Sigh.

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  24. I think that it is fair to say that 95% of everything that we have written has totally went over his little brain. Poor thing, really unable to "think outside the box."

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  25. JD-

    You used the NIV. Strike one.

    You missed my second point about God's wager. A moral loving God would not wager against the life of his servant, just to "test" his faith. And you might want to re-read Job yourself and answer the question of why Satan is called a "son of God" and is roaming freely around Heaven after the supposed "fall" form grace?

    Your other quotes about Satan's character are opinions, but not actual accounts of anything he's done. Strike two.

    Were other factors involved? Read your Bible and find out JD! I included a link which tallies God's killings. Read those verses and get back to me. (And remember, it's not whether God is "testing" his followers, but if he is guilty of the charges of mass murder--for whatever ultimate agenda or purpose he has--are you telling me he is not responsible for those accounts? Cuz it sounds to me that's what you're saying, and that would be a lie. Strike three.

    You're out!

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  26. You used the NIV. Strike one.

    And rather than dismissing the NIV without stating why, is it asking to much to answer the relevant question? On the link I provided you can take your pick of 15 different translations to quote-mine.

    A moral loving God would not wager against the life of his servant, just to "test" his faith

    No. More well put, it is your opinion that a God that is described in terms of some extra-Biblical idea of "omnibenevolence" wouldnt. Apparently the God of the Bible did and I will reiterate that God does allow His servants to be tested. You are attacking a strawgod.

    you might want to re-read Job yourself and answer the question of why Satan is called a "son of God" and is roaming freely around Heaven after the supposed "fall" form grace?

    Yes, I do read my Bible with something other than a mind that is completely closed and seizing upon the first superficial explanation that most closely fits my worldview and then look no further. If that isnt the case with you, then what does the "sons of God" reference means? I'm sure that you've looked it up and are ready to explain it to me. If not, then do you admit that you didnt explore the definition whatsoever?



    Your other quotes about Satan's character are opinions, but not actual accounts of anything he's done. Strike two.

    Is the purpose of the Bible to follow Satan around and give account of every evil thing that he has ever accomplished? if so, what was your source for this interesting bit of information?

    John 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    As for the "destroyer" reference, perhaps you could do a little word search for us in reference to the Greek work Apollyon?

    Insofar as "anything he's done (Satan)", what version of the Bible did you read that fails to mention that due to Satan's meddling, the fall of man occured and every manner of sin and disease entered the world as a result?

    Were other factors involved? Read your Bible and find out JD! I included a link which tallies God's killings

    As I stated earlier, I do occaisionally crack open my Bible. I asked you a specific question which you refuse to answer. Look, I'll make it easy for you. Cite a specific example that you find questionable and we'll discuss it. Your personal favorite if you will. I'm still waitng for you to quit being so evasive and answer the 2 direct questions that I asked you in my entry that is time-stamped 3:18.

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  27. Wow, after rereading what JD just posted, I really would like to retract what I previously wrote. Clearly 99.9 % of what we said went over his head. Or, like a kid, cause he did not like what he heard, or he cannot deal with what he has heard, he fails to acknowledge it.

    No shock there.

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  28. Wow, after rereading what JD just posted, I really would like to retract what I previously wrote. Clearly 99.9 % of what we said went over his head

    You, like other ankle-biters such as Chihuahuas and pomeranians are ignored for a reason Tink-tank-tunk-with-the-junk-in-the-trunk. Nothing substantive here.

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  29. Still struggling with the last 50 pounds round the middle JD?

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