Wednesday, November 11, 2009

Congratulations! You've made it.

I know Atheism isn't a religion because you guys keep telling me that. But The Atheists have put up a billboard here in Cincinnati, and are letting you know that you can go to church with one another. I'm sure you wont call it church, but you guys are pretty bright and I'm confident you'll come up with a catchy name. (Any ideas)? You can meet with one another and listen to a speaker and everything. And of course they will need donations to help further their cause. We have some old pews we will sell you at a good price. Also I'm wondering if you all will be signing up for the upcoming softball season? After the games we usually all go out for ice cream together.

P.S. If you'll will be meeting on Sunday mornings will you please try to get out by 11:00 or after 1:00. I have enough trouble with the damned Methodists and Church of God folks jammin' up all the good resturants.

Peace out, feeno

30 comments:

  1. "and are letting you know that you can go to church with one another."

    Will they be having any public christian crucifixions?

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  2. I'm a happy member of the unchurched.

    Although, I'm not an advocate for Churchianity, although there are some who would like more social network opportunities. I'm fine without it.

    I think the moment Atheists start to define themselves as something more than just a nonbeliever by grouping themselves into denominations and establishing a canon of beliefs they are in danger of moving from the secular to the religious mind set.

    However, that said, there is nothing wrong with gathering once in a while to enjoy a speech, a rock concert, or a good barbecue.

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  3. Gandalonian

    Maybe one day, but for the time being, we seem pretty safe.

    T Vick

    It does seem that Christians have an automatic group of people to socialize with. But for me personally 2/3rds of the barbecue's I attend have few if any Believers. I'm not religious when it comes to things revolving around food. Which also means that you guys are rubbing elbows at barbecue's with some Christians. Don't they liven up the party a bit? Plus if there's another Christian there, they wont drink any of your beer.

    Thanks guys for commenting. feeno

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  4. Feeno, I'd rather you didn't just take our word for it, so let's get down to it. What is a religion? And what defines the equivalent of a church service not run by a church?

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  5. LX

    W'dup Brah, Hows the married life treating you?
    Did ya'll have a fun time on your honeymoon?

    To answer your question, technically religion is what a person thinks about God. And an Atheist belief in God is that there is no God. So that's there religion. But let me try to further explain.

    Many Atheists, just like their Christian counterparts are dogmatic in their beliefs, and are intolerant towards others that don't view the evidence there way.

    Also most Atheists have to put their faith in something other than God, so they choose things like science or their non understanding of Scripture as reasonable reasons to have faith in their worldview.

    Did you know in 1961 the Supreme Court in the USA, came to the conclusion that "Secular Humanism" was indeed a religion. (Torcaso V. Watkins) And then about 4 or 5 years ago some derelict in a Wisconsin Prison sued the state because he was being denied his rights under the 1st amendment because he wasn't allowed to hold study groups for Atheists. He won his case as the Judge ordered that Atheism was in fact a religion.

    Non of that really means much, I just threw that in there for free. But let's look at this from just some regular people 's perspective. If you go to Mr. Loftus' site you will notice he is trying to raise support to go to the great state of Louisiana to spread his message. He needs to raise $1,000 dollars. The thing that struck me about that number is this, my 15 year old daughter is going to Mexico in a few months for mission work, she needs to raise $1,000 dollars. There are Atheist "small groups" popping up all over, again check out Debunking Christianity's site, or go to the web page from the group that is sponsoring the billboard campaign. There are many places where people who used to be "religious" can go and be "un-programmed" which is funny because they tell you how you've been brainwashed by a set of beliefs, now if you will just listen to us, we'll show you a better set of beliefs. (Irony)?

    Christians try to get laws passed based upon their beliefs, just like Atheists.

    Lastly, and this is just from my perspective but we all have to have Faith that there is a God, or have to have Faith that there is not a God.

    Good to hear from you again, late, feeno

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  6. Feenologist say..."Lastly, and this is just from my perspective but we all have to have Faith that there is a God, or have to have Faith that there is not a God."

    Hey Feeno isnt what you really saying here kind of an assertion that by your reckoning there is just as much evidence around for gods presence!,as there is for gods nonappearance!.

    To me thats like saying.
    1,god personally appears just as often to people
    2,as god doesnt appear so often to people

    Do i need as much faith that he doesnt appear... As you do in thinking that he does appear?

    Personally i think yours is much more the faith type of belief,than my belief.

    My belief is based on ..ohh i never see god/s

    Your beliefs more based on you thinking. ohhh!see some homies in books says, they see-d a god cuzz,so guess he must really be real aye ..Sweet...So whens the tea n scones arrivin??

    I agree with what Tristan Vick said,and think these atheist groups are often needed to help deprogramm...Lets face it feeno its not easy leaving religion...the ugly head of religon soon arises when folks say they leaving...Look at the problem Marcus had and Dan finds it tough ..Religion is by its very nature naturally often a very bigot type belief feeno,it trys to set a standard up and above general society...Discriminating and being intolerant of any not agreeing to belong to their elitist club.

    Feeno it even get you spitting tacks.."Well that's nice, I'm very proud of you."

    Due to the nasty nature of religion,many who leave will also lose some family relationships if other family still happen to be believers.These atheist organizations are even needed to try to HELP cope with this big problem.

    While christians will try and argue their belief dont! devide!so much at all,and will then even throw in "the more charity through faith" fallacy argument for good measure! to TRY to argue faith is really a good thing.

    They merrily forget that even their good ol friend Jesus inside the bible,say he also agree his belief gonna divide the hell outa folks like a sword!! ..Why it seems he had had such a guts full of everything!, he reckon he was even gonna divide mother from children and bro from sis ..And cuzzy from the uncle and aunty etc.

    And thats the problem with God beliefs,they have ALWAYS divided families/tribes and so then they devide the communitys also, creating a breakdown in society which soon leads to all manner of groups and gangs and theiving and prostution etc etc as people fight to survive what ever way they can.

    We need a society thats less bigoted.We need family/tribe and community to start to become more "the" focus again,not gods that divide us.

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  7. Gandimus Maximus

    Greetings and salutations. I would consider myself more of a smart ass than a tack spittin' sour puss? But it's hard to judge ones tone via blogging.

    I want to keep this short and sweet so you don't get sidetracked. I have only one question for you. Do you think maybe there are Atheists that have dis-owned some of their family members for converting to Christianity?

    Dueces, feeno

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  8. "Greetings and salutations. I would consider myself more of a smart ass than a tack spittin' sour puss? But it's hard to judge ones tone via blogging."

    Howdy feeno yeah well it is hard to judge tone via blogging becuse sometimes i do think yeah its just more the friendly smart ass banter ,but next moment im left thinking no surely it cant be.

    I think maybe many folks dont realize the problem is about quite a serrous issue,the christians might think the beliefs great.But maybe sometime forget the very same belief has caused very much widespread harm.Its not like many folks are just leaving faith simply because its just a fun thing to do and they just want to be evil or something.People are realizing these beliefs have maybe not been actually anywhere near as helpful to society, as folks have once maybe thought they was.

    And yet the enchainment type mentality of these faith beliefs naturally dislike any people who dare try to remove themselves from them.I merely point out that you yourself displayed some of this phenomenon whether it was more honestly all about banter or otherwise...Thats beside the point religion over the many many years has become more and more superimposing domineering and opressive of any who dare resist,while also laying claim to persecution if people make a stand that they will no longer allow it.

    "Do you think maybe there are Atheists that have dis-owned some of their family members for converting to Christianity? "

    Im sure it could be very possible,not that i know any personally who i know have.Most every atheist i know is ACTUALLY battling the superimposing nature of god beliefs, which believe it or not have ACTUALLY tried to impose a supposed need for people to believe in god/s now for thousands of years.

    Now i suggest feeno it could be argued maybe there actually might be good valid reasons and even some logic being used for folks to not be so inclined to feel so happy about family converting to god beliefs which have long proved they subdived our families and communities...and even our world!!

    Surely we need to consider reasons people are unhappy with matters a bit, dont we?.

    For instance

    1,People like myself being disowned by family because of opressive god beliefs.
    2,People disowning family for joining said opressive god beliefs

    Does not prove both god belief, dislike of belief of gods is nessarily both being opressive,does it?.

    After all one would never have no need to have happened, if said god beliefs had never been so opressive in the first place.

    Folks could maybe also try to argue, people against tobacco smoking are just being opressive in disliking folks smoking,but really folks against tobacco smoking just wish to liberate all from the adictions that only cause cancer and pain in the long run.

    In the same sense as ive outlined above,my opinion is it seems a little dishonest and unfair!, to try to argue that maybe both believer and non believer are acting the same way.That to me just downplays the fact that god beliefs have hurt many people,and many people maybe actually do have some good reason to dislike family converting to god beliefs.

    Of course then vice/versa you will then argue that much good has also been done with god belief etc ...My reply to that though is that all that has been done didnt need the god belief AT ALL to make it happen.

    Your arguement: is we need to take the bad habit with the good habit.
    My argument: is we can still have all the same good habit without needing to accept the bad habit.

    What do you think feeno ..Should we just forever accept good with the bad...Or move on to prefering to acept more of the good with the good.

    Doesnt a postive and a negative just cancel each other out?,and always equal much less in the end than two positives always do!.

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  9. I know Atheism isn't a religion because you guys keep telling me that.

    It IS a non-theistic religion. Atheism isnt the opposite of religion, it's the opposite of theism. Duh. And besides, the courts in this country (US) have already ruled it's a religion.

    A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate's rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.
    "Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being," the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.
    Link

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  10. P.S. Please spare me the obligatory " atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color" reference.

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  11. Yes thank you JD, atheism is legally a religion for purposes of fair treatment in the United States, where incidentally I am not. From that same WND article (which, Feeno, is about the same case you mentioned), here's the head lawyer from the American Family Association: atheism "by every known definition other than the courts' is not a religion". Do you disagree with the AFA, JD? Feeno?

    Theism is belief in the presence of a god of a certain sort. What's the opposite of this, lack of belief in that kind of god or belief in the absence of that kind of god? Is the opposite direction to east a lack of movement, or is it west? One is atheism and the other is strong atheism, to which few atheists subscribe. It requires a bit more thought than "duh".

    Meanwhile, JD, what you've said doesn't shed much light on what a religion actually IS. I'd like to know your opinion on this as well as Feeno's. By the way, my compass analogy is quite close to the hair colour reference, but why should I spare you when you haven't spared me the same?

    Anyway Feeno, the wedding and the honeymoon went swimmingly and we're settling into married life very well. The ring is taking some getting used to; I keep banging it on my opposite knuckles when I clap.

    None of these dictionary definitions of religion are equivalent to "what a person thinks about God", so based on what do you think that's "technically" the case? The main definition actually includes "...when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies," so it's tough to fit atheism into that.

    We may have to shift the definition discussion to "faith" if you're going to talk about "faith" in science. The main question is, is faith based on evidence in your concept? If so, then it's equivalent to simple confidence based on prior experience and it's hardly the domain primarily of religion. If not, then it's not necessary to science.

    On your last point, a man may collect donations to go to South America and save the rainforest, but does that make environmentalism a religion? A Republican solicits campaign contributions to win a public office from a Democrat, but does that make Republicanism a religion? No. Atheism, like the above, can be a cause.

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  12. I believe that when the courts ruled re: atheism being a religion, they went with the definition "A cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" (Merriam Webster)

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  13. Under this definition, might "strong" atheism and "weak" athism qualify as competeing denominations of the same faith?

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  14. OK LX you guys are not a religion. Just a cult. You can sell candy and flowers at busy intersections to raise "awareness" that their is no God.

    That was a cheap shot, I thought about erasing it, but it's to damn funny?

    Anyways what are you clapping at so much? I'll be married 25 years in March and the only time I've taken my ring off was to have it enlarged. I've gained about 100 lbs since I got married. I don't even know I have one on anymore, and after a few months or years it will be the same with you.

    Maybe your response has changed my mind a little bit, but would it be fair for me to say, "Atheism is not a religion, although many of them practice their Atheism religiously"? We both have, books, magazines, movies, internet, missionaries, geez the only thing you guys are missing are people at sporting events holding up signs for the TV cameras saying "God does not love you". Now that would be funny.

    Thanx LX, feen

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  15. Gandopolis

    I forgot who it was that I asked this question from, but I do remember it was an Athiest and his response was very good. You will see why I ask this question of you because it will be part of my response to your comment. Do you think that most people who leave the Christian faith
    have a legalistic type faith background? Because you mention words to describe religion like "domineering, oppresive and persecuting". No wonder you got the hell out of church, I'd have been right behind you on your way out the door unless I got there before you.

    I think people who end up in churches where they understand you can't "beat religion" into people probably don't have them "deconverting"? Unless they are at the other end of the spectrum and they are a very liberal church? Again, I don't really know, but am curious.

    Do you want to get rid of religion, or God? Try to answer that with out saying they're the same, if you can. If you can't, that's ok too.

    Later G, feeno

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  16. JD, regarding atheism I'd agree with the ardour in that definition if not the faith. I'd also ascribe faith to strong atheism, if not weak. Strong atheism is an explicit belief that doesn't rely on conclusive evidence, provided Victor Stenger's case against gods isn't airtight (and even Dawkins doesn't think it is). That's why I'm not a strong atheist.

    Feeno, there's nothing wrong with cults per se. A cult is just a group of people who share a belief, position or interest outside the mainstream, for example Trekkies. Groups only try to avoid the label "cult" when they would rather be labelled something else, like "religion" (Scientology, for example, fights this fight). The real issue is whether a cult is deceptive, manipulative and/or dangerous, like the People's Temple (or, from the perspective of majority Christian denominations, most other denominations - the Christian "countercult" movement mostly targets Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses). If atheism is a cult, it's not that kind of cult, so that's fine.

    I'd agree that some (not many) atheists do treat their atheism like a religion. Any common interest can develop that kind of devotion, even football or Star Trek. I see this as a bit silly, because atheism is an absence and it's not smart to base one's life on a hole. Roughly as I said to JD, atheists have to look further than their own atheism for applicable, defensible philosophy. Humanism is often a good start.

    I haven't clapped much, really, it's just that the way I usually clap my ring finger knuckle lines up perfectly with my thumb knuckle, so I started whacking it straight away at the reception speeches.

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  17. regarding atheism I'd agree with the ardour in that definition if not the faith.

    My thoughts are as follows. Neither you nor I proport to know even 1/2 of 1% of all of the knowledge in the universe. I one of us were to make a (universal negative) statement like "God does not exist" then it would be incumbent upon the person making that statement to prove that He does not exist. Good luck with that. For this reason I always have found agnosticism to be a much more easily defensible position.

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  18. I've heard that one before, rather a lot.

    If I were to say without qualification that God doesn't exist, the onus would be on me to prove that. That's why I don't say it much. Even when I do, I don't think for a moment that I'm guaranteed to be right. I'm simply confident enough in the probability of it that I doubt I'll be proven wrong. If challenged, I'll admit I'm not sure. It's like walking to the shops without even considering the real but negligible chance that I'll be killed by a meteorite on the way.

    That's the point, really: I don't know whether there's a god, and I'm not sure it's possible to know. I am agnostic. Thing is, I don't believe in one either, and furthermore I'm of the opinion that there probably isn't one, so I'm an agnostic atheist.

    The ones who have more explaining to do are the strong atheists, and the supposedly oxymoronic "gnostic" atheists who think they know there are no gods.

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  19. I agree with JD Curtis that agnosticism be a much more easily defensible position.Id say atleast until it can be better proven,atheists are really only agnostic in the sense they cannot totally prove that for cetian 100% no gods or supernatural intelligent being exist.

    But still id say it still takes more faith to believe in gods,than to not believe in gods.We do not ALL freely observe evidence of the presense of the existense of gods ..equals less use of faith to disbelieve god dont exist, than it take to try to believe gods do exist.

    If religion is taken to just simply mean people who are passionate etc about something,then army life is religious.A hospital job is,and sports too etc etc.

    But im sure some folk are boardering on seeming very religious about seeing some change happen fast about matters surrouding religious belief of gods and supernatural beings.However to class their passion as being that of being religious,is religious in the sense they totally "believe" its for a good cause over all to the benefit of the majority within humanity.

    And for that in my opinion there is good "reason" for it,(so its not about faith),because the evidence and proof of the damage faith beliefs have caused are freely available for us ALL "to observe".

    However even if non belief is considered religion,atleast the belief is more all inclusive of everyone in the end,in that progression of the belief of there being "no gods" reunites in the sense that belief of no god sooner or later has to bring more folk back together by their common sharing of a universal "non belief".

    ie ..1,If people are of "Non belief"..they less devided in that they all simply dont believe.This give them atleast one less thing to divide and argue over.

    2,"Pro belief" has been well proved so very very often to cause many different devisions and exclusive attitudes.That have long caused disharmony and even war.

    Feeno if religion really is just about the part of folks gathering in a very passionate way in many different situations,then maybe its not the religious bit thats the problem.

    What becomes a problem is peoples aceptance their knowledge of who the gods is and what he supposedly said folks should do blah blah.And who should shun who,and whats right and wrong...etc etc.

    Thats where the problems start feeno.When myth and peoples imaginations and faith beliefs and creative writings and decisions of who "the" god supposedly is etc ,becomes deceitfully changed and passed on and pushed as being that of "facts" and "truths" .... When in all HONESTY its not.

    "I think people who end up in churches where they understand you can't "beat religion" into people probably don't have them "deconverting"? "

    Yeah but that doesnt prove church and god belief is good for society as a whole.Just because folks in a few chuches like yours dont have many problems,doesnt prove that god belief isnt bad for society (as a whole). Because statistics and history tells us the majority figures(as a whole) still suggests god beliefs split and devide society and the world, rather than unites it..

    Yes your little particular church might unite certain folks around you.

    But that doesnt prove churches and Mosque and temples etc (as a whole) tend to unite folks community wide and worldwide does it.God belief and superstition passed on later as being honest truthful fact,has been well known to be the MOTHER of much division and hurt and sadness worldwide.

    And until folks realize it.It wont change so much.

    Thats why some people get very passionate/religious about doing what they can in helping progressing humans disbelief.

    Even folks being agnostic doesnt cause any of the same problems, that humans decietfully turning myths and dreams and imaginations etc into being then told as truths and fact does.

    Once people jump from agreeing they dont know,to indoctrination of guess work and deceit as being truth and fact thats when the real troubles begin.

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  20. That crops up with atheists also, I notice. When explaining why they don' believe in God, often times their arguments amount to either a criticism of religion or something like "certain explanations concerning the Bible do not fit my worldview.

    These complaints really don't have anything to do with the existance of God

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  21. A lot of complaints are more focused on religion than God, JD, except that such complaints do counter to some extent the arguments for both the existence and the beneficence of God based on the good works of believers and churches.

    A big selling point for many is that God makes people good, or better, which is why there's an uproar wherever a billboard goes up saying nothing more than, "You don't need God to be good."

    If a religion has apparently un-Godlike deeds to answer for, at the very least it speaks against the positive influence of a caring god in that religion.

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  22. A lot of complaints are more focused on religion than God, JD, except that such complaints do counter to some extent the arguments for both the existence and the beneficence of God based on the good works of believers and churches.

    One of the primary tenets of the Christian faith is that we, as humans, are fallible, not perfect and in need of a redeemer. What are some examples that "counter to some extent the arguments for both the existence and the beneficence of God based on the good works of believers and churches"?

    I think that "existance" and "beneficence" are too dissimilar to be discussed in the same discussion. One is very broad (existance). The other can be hashed over and over, again and again and still not be perfectly understood by finite, limited creatures who are very, very different than God.

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  23. JD..These complaints really don't have anything to do with the existance of God"

    JD in my opinion it seems to me surely to some extent they must do.

    Maybe not so much about whether god/s or a intelligent supernatural might or might not still exist.

    But more concerning whether the god/s or supernatural forces "people profess" to know about and often plauge or communities with like cancer that then often devides us all.Really actually truthfully exists..

    IE ... The religions are connected to the many supposed gods or supernatural forces,that folks of faith have infested our world with.

    The complaints are about all the human gods,is directed at gods of mere guesswork.Because its the guesswork what causes the problems.And because not even one belief in this whole wide world can provide real totally unquestionable evidence that their god of guesswork is actually real,its pretty good evidence to suggest most likely its not very likely at all that any are real and honestly true.

    So in that sense yes JD, the complaints are actually all only about the many religions and their many false and unporoven gods.

    Its not a complaint against any honest true god or supernatural intelligent force that might some day actually be honestly found to actually exist.

    Its the guess work whats been dangerous.Its the lies that enchain people to the abusive nature thats been a big part of religion for thousands of years now,splitting and dividing families and nations in the process and helped in being the cause of much disharmony and distruction within societies.

    Which is why i try to be sure to never let myself start to specially (personally) dislike any folks of faith,i know its their indoctrination that allows them not to consider the over all effects religion has had on societys.I know its not the fact that their genes made them not care about it.

    Yet i feel often faith folks will seem to hold it against us (personally), when they experience us not holding their religion in the same reverence as they do.

    feeno asked earlier .." Do you think maybe there are Atheists that have dis-owned some of their family members for converting to Christianity? "

    I have yet to see even one blog online where non believers are rejecting or totally excommunicating family who have "joined religion".I have yet to see where believers are finding it hard to tell non believing family they have converted to religion.

    Like people for years and years especially kids have such trouble being honest and telling religious god believing family, of their choice of de conversion and disbelief of gods.

    And yet with the history and evidence thats suggested how dangerous god beliefs have almost always been....I suggest the non believers are actually the ones who actually have the very very good honest reasons for deserving to feel abhorrence! of people who still believe in gods.

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  24. JD, the idea of human fallibility is great for clearing God of any wrongdoing when even His own representatives in most every denomination do despicable things. Other religions have their equivalent clauses. However when the good works of the religious are credited directly to God at the same time, one or the other must be special pleading.

    An obvious example of this is the practice of child rape by Catholic priests worldwide. Catholics may say it's done against God's wishes, getting Him off scot-free, but they can't then turn around and say with any authority that what other potential offenders need is God. The Catholic approach to God, at least, hasn't demonstrably worked even for those steeped in it all their adult lives. Evangelicals have had their own scandals, as you know.

    Existence and beneficence are very different things to argue about, but they both run into the same problem here. If bad events and actions are not evidence that God's malevolent or just not there, how can good events or actions be evidence that God's benevolent, or there at all?

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  25. "One of the primary tenets of the Christian faith is that we, as humans, are fallible, not perfect and in need of a redeemer"

    The best redeemer Christians could most likely use is to take (their knowledge) that.. quote JD.. "humans, are fallible, not perfect "

    And use it wisely to let it finally really sink in and register ... That well. wouldnt ya know it .. hey humans are known to be "fallible, not perfect "

    So then yes that also means mans myriads of different god beliefs could all just very well really be simply about much bullcrap.

    However seems so far while Christians will always freely admit yes man often bullcraps much,they strangely still fiercely also defend and mantain mans faiths could never likely be much about bullcrap.

    So should we really be so surprised at much of the madness that exist upon this planet.

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  26. So then yes that also means mans myriads of different god beliefs could all just very well really be simply about much bullcrap.

    An unproven assumption. A comparative study of other religions to Christianity is in order. I do not endorse other religious beliefs.

    seems so far while Christians will always freely admit yes man often bullcraps much,they strangely still fiercely also defend and mantain mans faiths could never likely be much about bullcrap.

    It would appear that you are lumping all religions in together. They are not the same. To state that they are would be illogical.

    So should we really be so surprised at much of the madness that exist upon this planet.

    I quoted a columnist on my blog yesterday who stated "It's not the Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics or congregants of other denominations committing these acts of terror – it is Muslims. And until we have leaders who are willing to do the unpopular, Fort Hood, Jose Padilla, the Portland Six and Najibullah Zazi are just the tip of the iceberg." Your thoughts please. Or anyone else who would like to comment.

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  27. I wrote.."So then yes that also means mans myriads of different god beliefs could all just very well really be simply about much bullcrap."

    JD wrote .."An unproven assumption. A comparative study of other religions to Christianity is in order. I do not endorse other religious beliefs."

    JD had already previously written .."One of the primary tenets of the Christian faith is that we, as humans, are fallible, not perfect and in need of a redeemer"

    JD Curtis if it is really such an assumption then it is you that made the assumption first ...You told us "humans, are fallible, not perfect" ....And JD when folks are fallible a simple way to explain it is its about whats known as there being a lot of bullcrap been told.

    But i dont see how that can be such an assumption at all,infact i think its actually a well known and proven fact!! that humans are well known to be fallable and liable to be erroneous or false.Quite able to being deceived or mistaken etc.Look at the many frauds already been exposed within the christian faith,why then is fallibility/bullcrap we talked about,then claimed by you to only really be such a "An unproven assumption" ?.

    JD .."It would appear that you are lumping all religions in together. They are not the same. To state that they are would be illogical."

    JD please list for me "any" religions who freely admit man is fallable,and so then are also freely sceptical of their own religious god beliefs that are presented to them...They naturally have trouble being both sceptical,while being faithful at the same time.

    None that i really know of are sceptical and faithful.Thats the stupid part they will esily suggest oh yes man can be fallable,yet always so easily also deny it could ever likely be the trouble with them and their own belief too.


    "It's not the Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics or congregants of other denominations committing these acts of terror – it is Muslims. And until we have leaders who are willing to do the unpopular, Fort Hood, Jose Padilla, the Portland Six and Najibullah Zazi are just the tip of the iceberg."

    JD i do agree its the muslims going off the deep end and starting the physical hurting killing and bombing etc.

    But there is much more to this than muslims are just the bad people and natural terrorists.Thats rubbish.

    If that were so honestly true Muslims everywhere in the world would always cause problems,yet muslims in NZ dont hurt anyone very often.That in NZ religion is very much less predominant,its a very good thing.

    Religion plays a very big part in the undercurrents that help manipulate and control whats happening in major problems around the world.There is more ways to abuse people than just use of the physical,and it has been said manipulation and psychological abuse etc might even be just as much if not even (more) painful than the physical abuse.

    Religion and god is proved to have played a big part when its said the muslim in Fort Hood cried .. "God is great" as he gunned down innocents. http://www.newschief.com/article/20091118/NEWS/911185038/1011/LIVING02?Title=Fort-Hood-massacre-was-clearly-an-act-of-terror

    "And until we have leaders who are willing to do the unpopular"

    Oh JD ...Are you really suggesting it can still be sorted by force .... Do you really think use of just enough soldiers or just enough bombs etc, will likely ever be able to quench the will of men to be quite prepared to die for his beliefs with the thought that his god still remains with him at his side while he dies?.

    The U.S.A is just recovering from a recession.Wars have cost mega amounts already in both lives and money and morale.Possible troubles are still looming from many other different directions,and some other major players in the world are busy banking dollars while the U.S.A spends theirs flat out like money simply grows everywhere on trees.

    You can try blaming the different politicians if you like,but its the thoughts and beliefs of the public majority in general which also helps form the undercurrents and controls what happens.

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  28. From that article it says..."This Christian nation is at war with radical Islam. We have been at war and will remain at war until those embracing that culture of death are eliminated."

    JD in my opinion id say its a pretty fair bet its quite likely a religious christian war against islam started a long way before anyone got killed .Before the killing started, a war of money manipulation domination propaganda and infiltration etc was very likely well underway.With the primary purpose of influencing the opinions, emotions, attitudes, and behavior of muslims some main reasons being to try to convert them to christianity.

    And im sure maybe even some would likely have been trying to also use the situation for their own financial gain.

    None of which is an excuse for the pain and horror and killings .But changing promblems is not necessarily about excusing anything,its about trying to understand something,so you learn about all what might need to change.

    Naturally this is only my opinion.But its my opinion made also by noticing we dont have muslims feeling a need of attacking us for some reason.

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  29. I don't understand why Christians fear Muslims so much. They worship the God of Abraham; they just call him different names. The Koran even talks about Jesus, they just spell his name differently.

    I don't think there's a 'muslim conspiracy' to attack America. I think those are boogeymen stories. I think what happened is a few isolated cases of nut-cases.

    You certainly won't win by sending more soldiers to the Middle East. Might as well use a bazooka to kill a mosquito. What needs to happen is finding out who's crazy and sending them to a mental hospital.

    And even if there were crazy fanatics in Afghanistan, doing calisthenics on monkey bars (ooh! Scary!) and reading the Koran in a cave, you don't need hundreds of thousands of US Army troops to get rid of them. All you need is a couple CIA agents with sniper rifles. 'Mission accomplished'

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  30. Im sorry If 2 comments got deleted. I didn't mean to censor anyone. please forgive me.

    feeno

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