Saturday, January 17, 2009

If I became an atheist

One year ago I couldn't turn a computer on. Eight months ago I got an E-Mail address and now today I'm writing my first blog.

As I exploered the internet for topics that intrested me, I ended up on an atheist website by John Loftus called Debunking Christianity. I had no idea who he was, and had no idea that atheists were so passionate about their beliefs. (or lack there of) Actually, I always thought of atheists like people from P.E.T.A. just a bunch of wierdos. Sorry P.E.T.A. people. Or atheists?

But when I discovered that John (Mr. Loftus) was actually a well known and a popular Author I was Impressed. Not for the fact that he's kinda a famous, but because he treated me, a born again Christian very graciously on his atheist site. And a few of his contemporaries would also take time out to "set me straight" in their posts. W'sup Jeff, Tracy, Gandy and Playa.

There was something unique about this group, most of these people claimed to have been part of the church at one time. Could that be possible? And much like a Christian who shares his testimony of how he got saved, I read stories about how they got "deconverted". But I have one problem with these stories. I can't figure out why alot of these people seem to have such a disdain for people they used to have a relationship with. I was up all night a while back talking to a former pastor who left the church, he had mentioned that he had received a negative backlash after he made his deciscion, and actually recieved hate e-mail from "loving evangelicals". I asked him if he thought more people from his church were praying for him, or sending him hate mail. He never answered that question.

If I became an atheist: First I go and see my pastor and tell him I am no longer a believer. Here's what happens next. The deacons get together and pray for me and my family. My sunday school class prays for me. We will receive cards and letters from people wishing us well.
People will be calling to see if they can do anything for us. Old ladies and young alike will be dropping off cakes and brownies. My friends in the church will still be expecting me to come over and watch the MMA fights. ( and probably try to convince to come back to church) People from the church will still be calling me to install ceramic tile in their house (that's what I do) Plus I can't see myself suddenly not liking them either. And as much as I love my church, this is not uncommon.

So it troubles me to see these people one week sitting in a pew next to their friend trying to figure out if they should eat together at Applebees or Bob Evans, then a week later think less of them because their a Christian.

I wanted to write this blog on my own site, so not to take advantage of John's vast number of hits he receives. Or to be a nuisance to anyyone over at D.C. , who really did treat me well.
One thing I've learned about this group, if you call them out, they will respond. I hope some how they will find my site and respond to this.

Peace out, feeno


  1. Hi there! You posted on my blog, I figured I might as well return the favour :)

    As far as passionate atheists are concerned, I think it's perhaps a bit misleading when encountering atheists on the Internet. They tend to be a bit more...vocal, let's say. As far as I can tell (and I haven't been an atheist for long, so maybe I'm wrong), the majority of atheists are content just to live their lives with as little religion as possible. I'd rate PETA people as a bit more odd :P

    I've also spent some time on some a forum for ex-Christians (I think there's a link from the DC blog), and if you haven't been there, I think it might give you a better sense of what some people go through after their "de-conversion". While mine has been a fairly easy process (in comparison, anyway), some people have suffered ridicule, ostracism, and rejection from friends and family members. I read the story of a former pastor who has had his senior pastor and his own wife turn against him, and is currently in a custody battle over his children. (His wife got a restraining order against him.) So I can see why some atheists/former Christians start to harbour resentment for those they hung around with previously.

    Now with that said, I haven't lost any friends over my decision. Mind you, I haven't really told a lot of people outright either. But I don't think that I will lose any friends even if people find out. And I will say that there is a tendency for atheists to kind of feel "enlightened" compared to the other "deluded" Christians. I don't see it that way, at least at this point. But I can definitely say that the shifting of worldviews certainly has a tremendous effect on the way you see other people. It's not just a "I thought there was a God, now I don't think there is." It's a whole restructuring of the way you think and the basis you have for making moral and other life decisions. So perhaps it's not necessarily "thinking less of Christians", but rather "thinking differently of Christians." Or maybe I'm just making stuff up. I don't know.

    At any rate, it's a good thing that you are at least able to try and put yourself in others' shoes. Things always go more smoothly when you're at least willing to try and see things from another's perspective. So thanks for the opportunity to think, and keep up the good blog! :)


  2. Jeff

    I hope I don't step on your toes, and I certainly hope you never encounter any hateful people who treat you bad for your deciscion. But if I was honest I do hope you struggle with the deciscion, as your continue your search.

    I really enjoy the way you write and will continue to check your blogs out as often as I can.

    Thanks for the kind words. peace out, feeno

  3. Hey feeno w`sup :)

    My friend your church sounds pretty cool but let me just say you might not believe it but many churches are not quite the same way as you describe things.Very many people do suffer in one way or another if they dare to question matters .

    Let me point out that even you have shown that even in your church if you decided to disbelieve your disbelief would not really be simply accepted.Thats part of the problem with religions that you have even exposed here ,they are not happy leaving you to your personal choices they have to try to control your thinking.

    I mean no disrespect to you or your family and church in what im saying ,my thoughts carry no personal dislike and are said with no thought of malice.

    Atheists may at time sound even a bit pushy but just understand just as you can have a reason for a passion to want to make people want to believe.

    If as an atheist you can see that all to often these beliefs can cause harm ,its just as easy to have passion to wish/want that less people believed in these things that HAVE over history often caused much harm .

    And my friend i think if you thought about it enough you might feel people have just as much right to feel this way ,as does you pastor in wanting you to continue to be a believer.

    Peace to you and your family feeno ,from gandolf

  4. G

    Thanks for checking me out over here. I had a long tough week-end and I'm just now recovering.
    It was however very productive, yadi yadi yadi tax stuff.

    I believe that a Christian "pushing" his/her religion on someone can be bad, but we would have to define "pushy". Now, when a govt. tries to push a religion on people, I will agree with you, that is a horrible idea. And like you said, we can't argue with history.

    You know as much about the Bible as I do, Probably more, so this story is nothing new to you. But it is how I feel about "evangelism".
    Joshua, before he died gave a great speech. Josh. 24:1-15. He pointed out what God has done for them,(the Jews) then let them choose. Believe it or not I don't think of myself as a "pushy" Christian. I do however see your point about how my church wouldn't simply accept it. But I still have a hard time with the "deconverted". Usually if someone leaves the church, they go join another one. Not totally deconvert.

    Please check in on me from time to time, it was a pleasant surprise to hear from you. Hope all is well Gandolphville. Peace out. feeno

  5. feeno said.. "Believe it or not I don't think of myself as a "pushy" Christian."

    No feeno i dont think you are either .Not at all.More a bit concerned maybe.

    You said "But I still have a hard time with the "deconverted"

    Thats all it is with you my friend , maybe you just find it a little hard to understand.When taught religion maybe we can tend to think deconversion is like a end ,but many of us see it as a new beginning .:) Now dont be thinking of that remark like its said in some religious manner ,it doesnt mean we start a new life as devil worshipers or something .
    Its more about getting away from what some might have been told/taught to believe ,putting all that indroctrinated information aside while we think for ourselves much more about what really seems more logic and real .

    Yeah sure i will pop over to your blog to say hi now and then feeno.

    Take care !.

  6. G

    I was watching one of those "news magazine shows" this weekend. 48 hrs or 20/20,(?) on some obscure channel on cable.

    It was about some really religious parents (Mormons) who kidnapped their daughter a couple of days before her wedding day. They didn't want her to get married. (I guess). And as I listened to her story I felt so sorry for her. I started to understand why a lot people would want nothing to do with religion. Her parents looked liked a normal mom and dad. (whatever normal looks like?) But they thought that because of the 5th commandment anything they said or did to their kids, was totally justified. Do I believe that this is an isolated incident, unfortunately I don't. I'm sure you heard the old story about how the PK (preachers kid) is always the wildest kid in the church.

    I agree with you, that it would be a liberating feeling to leave a situation like that. I also know how hard it would be for a kid to make that decision when he/she looks up to his parents the way they do. Now I can't judge the motives of that girls parents, But I can say that they were wrong on how they went about it. People just aren't perfect. Christians or Atheists.

    If we quit believing in God every time a priest molested an alter boy, or a preacher had sex with his secretary or embezzled money from his church or our parents screwed up raising us, we'd all be atheists.

    If your right and there is no god, it won't be because religion is to cumbersome. Jesus said his yoke was easy. I think he meant we should quit worrying about rules and religion.

    I know you really are one who thinks for himself, I admire that in people. As I continue to search for answers in my own faith, I'm sure you will continue your search for the truth as well.

    Peace out, feeno
    P.S. Thanks again for clicking over!!!

  7. Feeno -- I'm a non-believer. I wouldn't say I'm an atheist so much as someone who hasn't heard a religious explanation of what god might be that made sense.

    Anyway, I was raised Russian Orthodox which carries a whole slough of different baggage than evangelical American protestants, theologically or otherwise.

    I "came out" as an unbeliever to my mom in my twenties, and interestingly enough, my siblings (5!) are for the most part unbelievers.

    But, funny enough, I have gone to church, married in the church participated in sacraments, and had my kids baptized. I think it's because I don't hold any gripes against the church per se, and it keeps me grounded me to the rhythm of life. The Russian Orthodox church is so old and unchanged that it's a step outside of time, and the times when I do participate in the Church let me step out of the idiocy of modernity and breathe at a different pace.

    I can't really take up too much umbrage against believers, because what the hell do I know? My cackles are raised, however, when believers, folks who claim the mantle of universal truth, try to shape the civil society to make it easier for believers to believe.

    I'm rambling. I'll stop now. I appreciate your civility.

  8. feeno,
    Thanks for stopping by my blog. I left a lengthy comment and some questions in reply to your comment on my post:
    Just click on the comments ---and you will find my reply below yours.

    As to this post of yours, I am guessing that you would lose some ---perhaps many ---friends in your church if you declared that you were an atheist. Probably friends outside of your church would not be so affected ---your coworkers, neighbors ----but church members would consider it a slap in the face, abandonment, or an act of rejection on your part. In Dan Barker's books "Losing Faith in Faith" and "Godless," the author (a former evangelical minister) lost most of his former friends and his wife. Amazingly, his parents who had been evangelical Christians eventually abandoned religion, too. His mother stated that when she became an atheist, she didn't have to hate anyone anymore.

    You will find atheists who are impatient with you ---or even get downright nasty. Some have no patience with those who believe in something that cannot be proven. Faith doesn't cut it on most atheist blogs. But as you saw on my blog, Christians can act pretty nasty, too.

    My frustration is that, being an atheist, I feel like a second class citizen. An open atheist running for office can never win. I don't dare let my boss know I am an atheist. He is a Jehovah's Witness ---very dedicated to his church. He is also a very nice man, but he has to submit monthly evaluations on all employees ---which are very subjective ---and I just don't need him to have any negative thoughts about me, aside from my work, especially in an economy where many are losing their jobs. I live in a neighborhood where I am surrounded by evangelical Christians. One of them drives around with two huge Confederate flags on the back of his pick-up, crosses on his bumpers, and a gun rack behind his seat. That doesn't necessarily make him a bad person, but his numerous violent acts do. I would be afraid for him to know I am an atheist. Most of my close friends know, but I am selective about who to tell ---even though I have been a doubter since I was 12 --more than 50 years.

    I have nothing against believers. I think they are deluding themselves, but that is their choice, so that's okay with me. I understand the pull of religion. The rituals, the music, the sense of belonging, the promise of an afterlife are difficult for some to give up.

    I can't say that i ever consciously gave them up. Rather, I evolved slowly from being a believer to having doubts. (There are several posts on my blog about why I am an atheist.) Once I doubted, I asked a lot of questions and read a lot. Soon, I just couldn't believe what the church and especially the Bible were telling me. As a teenager I didn't have the choice to leave the church, but it no longer held any credence with me, so even though I still attended, mentally I had left. As soon as I left home, i stopped attending and never missed it.

    Now, if you reversed everything I said --- a nonbeliever becoming a believer, some of the same would be true. Atheist friends might feel rejected, too. A religious person might say they understood the pull of nonbelief --the intellectual discussions, the scientific theories, the numerous Biblical contradictions..... yada, yada, yada.

  9. I left a response to your new comment on my blog post at

  10. I added another response to your most recent comment at:

  11. Sup Feeno - gotta say that I love the simplicity and honesty of your posts!

    I've also noticed that the most vocal and angry materialists tend to be those who once espoused a belief in Christianity specifically - yes, it is wierd.

  12. Simon

    Thanks for the props. After the ass whoopin' I took yesterday I needed a little encouragement.

    Your right, and you would think a true Atheist could care less about telling anybody that there is no God?

    Thanks for stopping by, please check in on me from time to time.

    Peace, feeno

  13. Sup feeno :)

    Who`s been ass whoopin ya and where ?? you dont seem the type that needs any of that treatment.

    Tell me though do you really honestly truly believe atheists shouldnt care less about tellin anyone if they personally think there is no god ?

    If people start feeding your kids and friends and people all around you all sorts of rubbish and lies that often led to many bad things,you can (honestly) say you wouldnt be feelin the need to go saying something about it ??.

    Sure i understand sometimes some christians are nice and do nice things etc,but hey is that a good argument for the cause?? because the way i see it i see plenty of non believers that can also be very much the same.And i have to say my personal experence(s) have been that many times these nice non believers are a whole lot less judgmental and quite obviously without any god prop they obviously do it right from the heart simply because as humans they honestly care!.Ie their is no personal (gains) of suggestions of eternal life on offer involved at all !.

    If you was a atheist and believed the world might actually be a better place with more people like this,you honestly truthfully wouldnt feel the need to be vocal at all??

    feeno i like you very much my friend i can tell you have a great heart!.But do you think you might be a little indoctrinated and wrongly led to believe that only a christian being vocal about faith belief can really be a good thing?.

    Just a few thoughts my friend.

    Peace Gandolf

  14. G

    W'sup fam,

    Over at Johns site there was a post titled
    Another Review Of My Book "Comprehensiveness" sets it apart from other Atheists works. And I got into it with some dude named KEL and he was having none of it. I probably got what I deserved though.

    Christians and Atheists can be equally cruel.

    Also I like the fact that everybody has the right to say and express themselves in their beliefs. It's not that I don't think Atheists shouldn't have those rights, just don't know why they would care?

    So before I have to admit I'm wrong again let me further explain. If I was an Atheist anytime the topic of God came up I'd just roll my eyes and think, whatever, if that's what they want to believe, more power to "em. What do I care.

    Now the scenario you pose, obviously would have me re-think that. But I have no right indoctrinating your kids (unless you send them off to my sunday school class) just like I wouldn't want some one else indoctrinating my kids.

    I think it was on John's site that I read maybe 80-90 percent of young men leave the church at 18. I'm sure many find their back, but they were at least able to "escape" the grip of religion for a while?

    Anyways thanks for your friendship, and if I ever cross the line, please let me know.


  15. Yeah feeno there`s no line to cross as far as i know,its more all about discussing things to try to get a better understanding of each other.

    You wondered why a atheist might bother to feel the need to speak up about faith beliefs,i just tried to write an example to help you understand.

    The thing is feeno christians need to try to understand faith beliefs effect our lives and societies whether we wish to be involved in them or not !.So atheists surely have rights and reasons for speaking their minds,its not just as simple as non believers having nothing to do with religion and then religion has nothing to do with you also.No not at all,religion is involved in all sorts and this effects non believers lives as well.

    For starters we have one group believing in a afterlife while many of us others feel this life is of such importance in that we only have one life.Personally my life has been stuffed up by a certain group of faith believers i cant do much about getting another one and get to live it again!,but i can be involved in warning people of the dangers of faith belief and how it can maybe waste many peoples lives.I have that right yes? because i can tell you i sure wish like hell people did a whole lot more warning about it before i was born.feeno my friend i feel much of my life has really been wasted for the love of god/s!.I really feel quite responsible for the future of humanity to atleast talk about it.

    Now my friend i know you will be sitting there thinking oh come on Gandy some religions are all cosy and friendly the one i go to is! we have heaps of great feeds together and all that stuff.

    But what im trying to say is yes i understand but do you also understand that its been from these cosy friendly churches in the past that many cults and abusive church offshoots have also once begun.Yep the cult i was born to came from another one that maybe at some stage wasnt quite so bad.

    But still it allways seems to be the separation and rightiouse devisive nature of these faith beliefs that starts these nasty aspects happening.And feeno my friend dont you go believing for one moment that nasty stuff only happens in cult churches!,families argue and divide over faith belief in many many churches.

    Did you ever consider that maybe some off us non believers might see how divided this world already is and not like what we aee.How today in the year 2009 society and the breakdown of the traditional family unit has become so widespread which in the end makes many matters worse.

    Many of us dont feel this world really benefits a whole lot from faith beliefs which can cause such division through families at times.Many folks maybe might not continue with faith beliefs and churches,but many take their bad attitudes with them ! the shunning ! the judgementelness etc etc .This bred along on outside churches doesnt stop! no im personally quite sure it can carry on going breeding more fragmented societies.

    When the breakdown of the family unit and society needs to be rebuilt into a type of inclusive tribalism, if we are ever ever to have any hope to see more peace and harmony.

    And what about the possibility of faith beliefs being maybe rather negative ?,they seem to use the power of positive thinking to suggest humans cannot ever really aspire to being more perfected being that we are supposedly dealing with some freaky spiritual evil in this world as well.

    And we think humans might be better off if more started doing nice things to each other more simply because of being human and tribal!.

    Lets face it my friend we know we dont need faith to be nice and we sure no that having a faith belief doesnt always make people nice.And its really so sad and kinda lame to think humans might need some faith to be nice.

    Yes feeno my writing to you was just to say hi! and mention some of these many many reasons also.

    Peace out bro :)

  16. "Many folks maybe might not continue with faith beliefs and churches,but many take their bad attitudes with them ! the shunning ! the judgementelness etc etc .This bred along on outside churches doesnt stop! no im personally quite sure it can carry on going breeding more fragmented societies."

    Im meaning many folks who might leave faith beliefs still often take their attitudes on elsewhere afterwards.IE: Parents being self rightious and judgmental of their kids and maybe even shunning and separating from them to some extent then causes the kids to breed this attitude on with their own kids.

    So religion still effects society whether its being personally still practiced or not.

    feeno there is much more to non believers feeling they need to be involved in having something to say regarding religion,than us just having fun getting up faithful folks noses.

    Peace out bro !

  17. G-man

    I tried to check out "Ecotourism Conservation Blog Hunting Lifestyle" but can't?

    I try not to use a lot of scripture, but sometime its the only way I can answer a question or get a point across. (So here goes) Jesus' brother James says "Pure religion and undefiled before God is this, to visit the orphans and widows in their affliction".

    You and me can agree when religion forgets this and becomes self serving than it worthless. Because James goes on to say "If a brother or sister is naked and or hungry and you say peace to you or (I'll pray for you)but do nothing to help them, then what good is your religion?

    I wish we would all focus our anger on religion, not God. Now having said that, religion the one James speaks of has tried hard to help human suffering.

    The two religous folks that walked passed the mugged victim, thats a false religion.

    The halfbreed samaritan who helped where he could, true religion.

    You said "religion still affects society whether its being personally still practiced or not." Yes but what if all Christians acted like Mother Teresa? Then it wouldn't be so bad. Would it?

    I think I'm gonna take the day off tomorrow, and go pick my daughter up at her college, bring her home for Easter weekend. I plan on having "heaps of great feeds" this weekend too. Hope you can enjoy a little time off as well this weekend to do whatever it is that you do for fun?

    Peace and hair grease, feeno

  18. Howdy feeno !.

    Yes my blog has been removed .For reasons i wont bother trying to explain here to much.

    Yes feeno very fine quotes from the book,but still what concerns me a lot more is where is humanity really at? if now it needs to rely on some book to become prepared to care about these folk.

    Humans have inhabited this earth so many more years before these books and faith beliefs even arrived.Tribe and family combined with some simple humanity along with the benefits that were forthcoming, once long ago used to be enough for reason for such practices to take place.

    Now many people of this world seem so sad their humanity almost seeming so shallow and lacking,the books they read it seems leaves them fearful of not ever being able to retain possession of any humanitarian instincts without these words to read.

    How much was the content of my blog really worth worrying about to much when this type of negative thinking exists so widespread ?.

    feeno how can one ever really focus anger on gods that dont exist?.Gods and religion are one and the same without any real good factual evidence to prove any of them honestly actually exist.

    Mother Teresa finally realized and humanly commented on the lack of evidence seen for any gods herself,though her religious instilled indoctrinated fear soon silenced her of this thought.Please tell me feeno Mother Teresa wouldnt need to be without any care or humanity without faith belief would she?.If you suggest so, im inclined to ask was her thoughts really only there for promises of some specials available in some afterlife?.Im wondering what type of love is this?love only for what can be personally gained by it? .

    feeno i feel you are a very down to earth bloke and i know where your heart is at,but my friend suggestions of faith beliefs being ok if only people would all become Mother Teresa`s is one thing to say but evidence of (thousands) of years of faith beliefs really suggests it just doesnt really happen!does it?.

    Try to take a good open un indoctrinated unbiased look at these faith books.Read with open eyes what is really written within them whether it be allegories or not supposedly supposed to be taken literally etc etc or what ever it might be that faithful folk often offer as excuses.

    And if after doing this you still find it is very likely these books would really ever produce that many Mother Teresa`s,get back to me and let me know how its supposed to happen.

    Take care feeno!

  19. Gandolf, you rmisrepresenting Mother Teresa. I realise the sensationalistic news stories excited some, but what she described was not her inare Arheism that was overcome bu fear brough ton by indocternation, but a sence of Isolation from God broufht about by witnessinf a great deal of suffering.

    To Charecterise her doubts in the framework of atheism suppressed by fear is to simply reduce her to somethign shes not in order to fit youyr needs for her.

    Its like when peopel poitn to STalin's past as a part pf an Orhtodox Seminary and blame Christianity on his later attrocities, or take some snippet from Mao and try to blme Buddhism because he makes Buddhist references (Mainly as literary devices, not as actual Buddhistic thinking).

    That said, a few things I wonder about is why Ahtiets constantly descirbe themselves as nonrelgiious. Religion is not really the same htign as THeism. Religio is just a orldview, and everyone has that.

    Liekwise, as ot the "No evidence fo nay gods" comment, thats nto tue either. Anthony Flew certiankly disagrees, as do most people, including Athiests, in the Philosophy departments. Good, sound argumnts based on evidence do acutlaly exist for the eistance of God, from Cartesian methodological arguments to modern-day Tillichhian arguments.

    The "no evidence" claim is just a mantra, like "Reason" used by the Atheistic subcukture.

  20. Oh also on Mother Teresa, and th general theme of not relaly beign love if done for a reward it the Afterlife...

    This is a common Argument I hear often, and it too is deeply flawed, because it depends on a false premise. THe premise is that Christian Chariry is not base don real love, and instead the CHristian tries to help others for the sole purpose of getting a reward int he Agferlife. So, you ask, how is that really love?

    But the real question is, is this an accurate depiction of CHristianity? The answer is, Its not. Christianity actulaly teaches that we arent rewarded based soley on doing good deeds, and this is true even in Catholisism.

    Christianity teaches us that we shoudl love one another for its own sake, and doing good for others hsould be motivate dout of a selfless olovove for them, not out of a desire for personal gain, eithe rin this world or the next.

    There is nothign in Christian teachings abotu simply beign rewarded for doign good deeds.

    Its also disingienious to postuklate the Ahtiest as mroe moral than the CHristian on this basis, as ou imply here, and as Ive heard stated before. THe arugment gos that because the Athiest doenst beleiv ein an afterlife, when they do good deeds its out of gneuine live, whereas the CHristian just does it for personal gain. However, just as its not true that CHristianity is based on a beleif that we get into heaven base don a checklist of good deeds, its also not true that all good deeds doen by Ahtits are nessisairly Altruistic.

    This is nto to say Athiests can't possibley be good, but it is rather limited to use this arugment, since Atheists can do good for personal gain just as eaisly as Christians can, and Christianity itself doens't teach a reward and punishment sustem.

  21. G

    I'm glad to hear from you. I really miss checking your thoughts out over at DC. What was John thinking? It's very boring over there now. I know why he did it, and don't blame him, but I miss all the comments.

    Also If you ever get your blog back up, please let me know. I'd love to follow it.

    I didn't mean to imply that humans need the bible to be kind toward one another. As a matter of fact we've talked in the past how people have used the Bible for evil. Just look at Fred Phelps. However it also helps to produce the likes of a Mother Teresa. And that's the goal, to be more like Christ. The Phelps' of the world do things for themselves, not others.

    I definitely have to agree with you about when Christians do good works solely for rewards, that is a wrong motive.

    Not that Mother Teresa needs any props from me. But If she was into rewards and personel gain, why did she spend a lifetime avoiding them? She sure had plenty of oppurtunities, but I believe she forsook the pleasures of sin for a season to suffer with the afflictions of her people. I read an article that minutes before she died on her deathbed her last words were "Jesus I see, Jesus I see." (But obviosly I wasn't there.)

    I know sometimes I seem to dodge your questions, but the truth is sometimes I just don't have a good answer for you. But I hope you wont get frustrated with me and will continue our chats. I hope I haven't said this in the past, but my brother told me this once. "Our friends are our friends, in spite of ourselves"

    Adios Amigo, Hasta luego, Senor feeno

  22. ZAROVE

    Congrats! I believe you are the first Believer on my site. Cool. I hope you come back from time to time. I value your thoughts and like the way you think. Wait.. I think Simon H could be a Believer and he commented, but that doesn't change the fact that your presense here isn't greatly appreciated. Thanks Brother.

    Peace out, feeno

  23. L.o.L .... Feeno!!whats going on??Seems ive got the faithful folk all ganging up on me here ! :)

    Hi Zarove.

    Im fine with agreeing to disagree on things as i personally still dont see it the same way you do.

    However im willing to maybe be agreeing that any suggested god who never shows real factual evidence of actually ever being present and helping is bound to leave its followers with feeling isolated.

    Sure there was plenty of suffering to be seen Zarove and absolutely no god ! to really honestly be seen anywhere either!.And i suggest Mother Teresa was being honest!,which experience has proved to me many many times as something many people of faith seem to often have real problems with doing.

    This problem for believers of Gods and religions etc arises when factual evidence does battle with/over faith!.Im not bothered with finding scripture to prove my point that a certain amount of fear is in place within scripture over those who might find themselves lacking faith.Put in place to help control and retain the followers,yes even by those (men)of old (who were smart enough) as humans even way back then to be able think more than well enough!to contrive ways to be able to manipulate and control people.

    But as with all (mere men) lacking any real honest "divine" guidance,their plan is coming unstuck as human intelligence and knowledge grows and things they wrote is now looking to really lack much in factual evidence.

    Isnt it the case that its actually nothing new! that peoples attempts to deceive, so often do bring about their own demise/fall in the end.Nothing new in that there huh? Zarove :)

    And just out of interest i have read very little of the Mother Teresa incident other than that it happened.So my thoughts on this matter are my own and not what ive had others tell me.

    From being brought up in and having left a religious cult where peoples almost every thought was controlled !,let me say thinking for myself and making up my own mind has now become very important part of life ! which im very particular of keeping .As i have really experienced the extreme dangers of humans who stupidly become wolly eyed sheep following the footsteps of those leading.

    I fully expect faithful folks to try to explain away things such as this Mother Teresa incident,faith is not faith if it weakens is it!.Such a terrible crime!look at what happened to that Ex Christian priest named Bruce on the debunking site a while back.He was honest and got crucified for it!even had to close down his own blog :(.
    And hell ive personally witnessed christian family of mine blinded even to crazy stuff,through stupid fear and worry of having lack of faith.

    As so many folks say religion just keeps on reinventing itself ,coming up with any excuse it thinks it can....But i suggest the fact still remains Zarove if evidence of any god was actually honestly available and had been clear to be seen (at all),well Mother Teresa would have had absolutely no reason at all to say the things that she did say.

    And i can honestly say i have no needs to fit her anywhere Zarove ,i have nothing personal to be gained for seeing it the way i have.However you Christians or faith folks faithfully believe you have huh,if only you continue with faith it has been suggested you will receive eternal life etc right?.Could it be you Zarove who is actually the one trying to represent it a certain way ?.

    And as for the Stalin Mao Hitler etc = atheism.I wont even bother to argue it with you,you are not likely to ever see that some of these people had religion involved in their lives .Neither is it likely you will admit stuff (actually written) within the bible can actually lead people into doing some mighty nasty stuff.

    Yet rather (strangely) you will probably find it very easy to believe non belief with no written faith indoctrination to follow can be connected to and lead to and be blamed for people like Starlin and Hitler and Mao etc :)

    One day just maybe it might dawn on you a little just how deep the effects of faith and religion has actually had on the world.And then be able to at least consider that just maybe its actually really quite extremely possible that even these folk could have been effected by it as well.

    But anyway this stupid Stalin etc argument by the faithful personally only leaves me quietly chuckling,im wondering when i`ll see Hitlers and Stalins etc popping up everywhere through lack of faith beliefs :).However myself and many other folks in this world right now actually do continue to see and experience and read about many many nasty folks of faith!,and more and more are being found out to be complete frauds every year!.

    I suggest here is a (honest clue) as to the fact.To try connect atheism or non belief with how Hitler or Stalin etc might have acted towards religion.Could be comparable to trying to suggest im (only) here debating with christians about the nastiness of faith beliefs etc,entirely because im just a evil atheist hell bent on destroying gods work and i really have nothing better to do with my life and just really get my kicks in life out of spending my time making fun out of christians etc.(ie religion/faith had had absolutely no effects on me and why im here spending time doing what im doing)

    When the honest Truth is i and all my family and many many friends families have experienced the nasty disgusting effects of religion/faith.The honest truth maybe also lies within the facts of just how much religion/faith did or didnt effect Hitler Stalin Mao or even anybody else for that matter.
    And lets be honest here religion effects many many people in one way or another in many many ways.In fact i doubt there is many people who are not effected to some extent by religion and faith beliefs,whether they are wanting to be involved in them or not.

    I suggest faith/religion carrying on with this old "oh people just keep picking on me for no good reason !" type mentality,is kinda getting to much like some kid who always gets caught annoying people!yet never wants to accept any responsibility for reasons why people just dont want to have to carry on putting up with it.

    And does it help the kid?? ...No it just keeps getting worse and popping up time and again ...And he`s there tryin to blame everything else "it wasnt me! it was the evil!the non bible readers that was the problem! they just stopped reading and started picking on me for no good reason at all" :)

    Zarove you make it sound like its all set out so simple for anyone to understand,you say this is how this is and this means that etc.And yet even though you are here telling me ho simple it all is and "Christianity actulaly teaches that we arent rewarded based soley on doing good deeds, and this is true even in Catholisism.

    Christianity teaches us that we shoudl love one another for its own sake, and doing good for others hsould be motivate dout of a selfless olovove for them, not out of a desire for personal gain, eithe rin this world or the next.

    There is nothign in Christian teachings abotu simply beign rewarded for doign good deeds."

    The problem is so many will be able to decide on a different translation and see it in so many other ways than you do....Infact its been such that almost anything can be derived to be true by the use of these books if somebody decides its ok.And this has been happening for thousands of years now,hasnt it....

    Folk of faith can choose to use the old "kids just bully me for no reason" type approach again and maybe say the old "oh but those folk are just not real christians"

    Or maybe think more about how it is that a book suggested to be (divine) really (actually!) manages to continually confuse so many .

  24. Howdy again Feeno!.

    Yeah i also miss everyones comments on DC too.To be honest i think maybe i understand John quite well.

    Put it this way i have (personally) experienced how faith/religion is a movement overall that generally shows you love as long as you agree with it.I have also experienced the deep dislike and yes even honest hatred shown by your own flesh and blood in these situations should you disagree.

    You saw and read about that ex minister Bruce that had a blog that was talked about on DC,who posted himself for a while.You might have read how much hate mail he was receiving and the hard time he was having.We only know some of it!.He was called a liar and told that he was always a fraud and never ever was a real christian!,yet nobody bothered to consider that he had had no real choice of religion/faith and had been indoctrinated with it since he was a child.

    John im sure has had no easy road!!.And whats worst feeno is it seems that maybe one of his worst crimes was being (honest) about not being completely perfect.Evidently he admitted some things in his book.And hell feeno that guy Bruce ran one blog for about half a week!,and he got so much crap from all corners he decided it was best for his health to just shut it down.

    So much for whats written within the faith book huh Zarove .It might talk about love etc in places but it must talk about a fair bit of other nasty stuff too,considering how it seems to make so MANY faith folk (actually) react as well...Hmmmmmm??.

    feeno with regards to MT and the personal gain bit, im not talking about any earthly gain.I was referring to how religion/faith has suggestions of gain to be had in the suggested afterlife etc.
    And the thing is it can be said that the book also says that we need to also do things as Zarove says "Christianity teaches us that we shoudl love one another for its own sake, and doing good for others hsould be motivate dout of a selfless olovove for them, not out of a desire for personal gain, eithe rin this world or the next."

    But that doesnt just mean its going to happen specially when read along with much other nasty stuff and besides its playing russian rulette with this fact that we are actually not perfect.

    Whats more i suggest and really honestly feel that all the while its also deminishing our original tribal instincts in the world where family loved each other because we were family and helped each other survive...Religion/faiths started teaching people to be judging even of ones own family members and shunnings and all sorts of divisions etc have been introduced to societies through it.

    My dad i believe i have been told said something kinda the same on his death.But hey he was brought up with these beliefs all his life always expecting it to happen etc.I happen to already have had dreams about many things that had become implanted in my brain some how in this life,like getting eaten by a shark.Does that mean i actually saw myself being eaten?.And i suppose some Hindus might see themselves being reborn as somebody else or something on their death bed or something.And quite likely some space ship arrives for some folks with faiths in these types of things.

    They are all real right? just because some people say they see them?.

    Hey i have no reason to worry to much if you dont answer my questions feeno.I dont even expect you too always,its not any compulsery discussion.I agree with your bro too.

    As i finish let me just say Mother Teresa (personally) has my vote too as a very wonderful special person.But the difference is i fully believe people such as her would still likely be these type of people just the same as well without any faith/religion.

    Peace to Feeno and family !

  25. And feeno sadly i cant help wondering if just maybe more people like Mother Teresa did what they do more only out of (pure tribal instinct and humanity), instead of needing faith beliefs books etc to act as some type of crutch type (needed) prop me up give me some reason for inspiration and motivation etc.

    Then it might help much more in reuniting (more people worldwide) into caring as well purely because of benefits of belonging to humanity and society as a unit.

  26. W'dup G

    We might be ganging up on you, but it's kinda obvious that you can handle yourself just fine.
    And if ZAROVE stops back by, I'll let him respond himself.

    Yes that sucked what poor Bruce had to endure.
    I tried to mail him a letter, but it came back about a week later. (I think he lives about 2-3 hours from me.) I followed that post until Anthony was able to contact him and make sure he was o.k.. I noticed your concern for him, and hopefully he'll be back better than ever.

    I can't speak for all religion, or even my own denomination. I can only speak of my own faith. So if my daughter was to become like you, (so to speak) and denounce Christianity, my love for her would not change. We would still want her to be part of our life/family. (although that would be a crushing blow, but whatever, it's all good.)

    Also I didn't choose Christianity because of how the church acted, or what they've done good or bad. I chose Christ, so I try to follow Him. I don't automatically follow the doctrine or teachings of my church. (We are a lot alike when it comes to that kind of stuff, I think?)

    My youngest daughter had a softball tournament this past weekend, they went 4 and 1. They won the championship and she got the game ball. Yadda yadda yadda, she had about 5 outfield assists hit 2 homeruns and probably 12 rbi's. She bats clean-up and plays center field. I'm telling you this because I spent all weekend at the ball fields and need to go mow the grass before the rains come. And also I'm telling you this cause I'm so proud.

    Later Homie, feeno

  27. Gandolf, the truth about Mother Teresa is what I'm explaining. Its wrong to view her as an Atheist, as she never was. The problem thT i identified is one you neve rrerally touche don. You seem to think she lost her faith in Gods existance, which isn't what she wrote, and certianly not what one can deduce form what she did leave us.

    You speak fo the need nto to decieve, and htis is part of that. it sliek when Atheists cite some US FOunding Fathers quites, usually taken out of context, to support their view that the US Founders where Atheists or Deists. Mother Teresa's remaining writtings are here simply beign abused, and not read with her intention.

    SHe originally felt Gods preasence clearly in her life, and fully, and just had a senc eof exhileration. This stiopped as she performed the Gruelling work in the care of he sick and dying.

    Instead she felt a poverty and lonliness, and a sence of frustration and hopelessness, as if God had abandoned her and left he rin a cruel, dyign world with little warth and less light.

    This isn't the same as feeling that God didn't exist, much less actually thinkign God didn't exist.

    It should also be noted that dispite the major media attention, her doubts comprised very little of her overall writtings.

    Its simply wrong to identify her as some sort of Loseted Atheist or soeone harbouring Atheistic doubts, when this isn't what was evident in her diaries. Instead, she had the normal doubts that plauge most peopel invovled in that kind of work.

    Includign doubts on what it really helped.

    But this is not the hwoel picutre and this is what I compaliend on.

    As to the rest, I'll try to reply later.

  28. Hey feeno my friend ! im sure you have plenty of reasons to be proud of your kids and family.

    Hope all`s good on the home front !.

    Well Zarove you may judge me as just wanting to deceive etc etc as much as you wish ,i dont mind!.Hell i know what my personal thoughts are really about,and Christian judgment in life has become nothing really so new to me ! in fact its even to be expected !.But im no soft cock,so its really a lot like water on a ducks back .

    It just flows off!, Zarove :)

    See the thing is i really have no reason to get all worked up over whats not actually true.

    Can you please point out where i can read copies of Mother Teresa`s (actual) personal writings ?.I only have what i find available to me.

    However according to wikipedia this is supposedly some of what she said.

    "Where is my faith? Even deep down ... there is nothing but emptiness and darkness ... If there be God—please forgive me. When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul ... How painful is this unknown pain—I have no Faith. Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal, ... What do I labor for? If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true."

    Zarove you say "You seem to think she lost her faith in Gods existance, which isn't what she wrote, and certianly not what one can deduce form what she did leave us."

    According to what she supposedly said "If there be God—please forgive me",sure seems like a rather atheistic type of thinking to me!.And rather honest straight forward talk also !i might add which is always specially pleasing to hear coming from faith believers.

    However ive noticed many people of faith dont really believe in being too straight up and all that honest about many things,they like to shift the goal posts continually .Hell even their written beliefs seem to hardly ever be about whats actually written and can always seem to be able to be twisted in some way to suit what pleases them best.

    So im not at all that surprised really if faithful folks choose to take Mother Teresa`a actual simple honest thoughts,and twist it to suit their purpose.Hell its all just another one of those biblical allegories,right??....Once again! wasnt ever supposed to be taken literally,blah blah blah.

    Hell just because Mother Teresa said "if there be a god" ,is in no way suggesting she had any real doubts.....Oh no ! its just not that simple...Hell nothing much about faith beliefs is supposed to be simple and straight forward ,hell no! that would be far to simple and these god,s just love making sure there is plenty of room for confusion and possibilities for abusive cults to happen that ruin peoples lives on this earth :)

    Oh no lets not face matters to damm simply hell no,Mother Tersa said "if there be god-please forgive me".Quite simple and clear! but that in no way is any honest questioning of Gods actual existence on her part at all :)

    No im sure we can turn and twist it into some other actual meaning that progresses the Christian cause.Just like is often done with scripture as well!.

    And lets just simply forget about it even being a matter of (ten years of doubt) where the honesty of the lack of presence of any god became so obvious.

    And Mother Teresa was not at all indoctrinated with any fear, oh no no! not at all.Which is why "She had asked that her letters be destroyed, concerned that "people will think more of me—less of Jesus."

    Tell me Zarove what reasons do i have accept your translations of supposedly what is fact or fiction about what Mother Teresa supposed intentions were of how things were supposed to be read etc etc ?.

    Simply because you are a Christian ??

    Hell m8 i didnt come down in the last shower! and without getting into wasting time with allegories etc let me just simply point out, life has taught me very well! that faithful folk just doesnt often really equal any real promise of honesty.

    Guess thats all about me being unjustly deceitful too huh

  29. Gandolf, this is a recucreing theme with you. Long posts which repeat the same tired accuaation agaisnt CHristians abotu how we refuse ot see truth and snippets of generalised complaits you got from elsewhere.

    It sliek withhte Pedophile Prits complaint. I had said its unjust to continually attack Catholic Priets based on it since the ovrall percentage is low, and you then repeated the actual number odf 4000 or so ( I dotn recall the exact number) and utterly ignroe dmy point, then lied about what I said, clainmign that I did not care about the actions of those prietsd, in the interest of my "Faith beleifs".

    Of course, the truth is, I never said the Pedophile Priests where no big deal or that we shoudln't care for the victims, I only said that we shoudln't blame all Catholic Prietst for this. There is a signifigant difference.

    The same is true here. Yoru quoting a small portion of Mother Teresa's work, which is not really reflective f how she viewed the owrld as a whole on a general basis. Many people in the Christian Faith have had sinmilar writtings that we know where never relaly Atheistss. C. S. Lewos wrote wuotes liek that too.

    Guess what? Neitche, Huxley, and Brooks all wroter about a beleif in God they held to at times of doutb abotutheir own ideas, as did H.G. Wells.

    Those moments of odubting ones worldview exist in most peples minds and occur ein variosu parts of their lives.

    SO what I'm actually saying here is that takign a small quote form a large body of work and usign it to create a pocute of how someone was all the time is not really a good way to get at what these peopel ar sall about. By this method I can make you htink that Huxley was a Devout Christuiian, or that Octavius Brooks went ot CHurhc every Sunday and prayed daily.

    I can even do the same for Robert Ingersol.

    The probelm is that these reflectiosn in times of doubt regarding their convictions are simply part of the Human condition, and are not rproof that they wheren't sincere in their proffessed beleifs.

    Mother Teresas doubts may have been sensationalised, but they arne't reflective of who she was overall.

    Please do get that poitn accross, becfor accusing me of being closed minded becayse im a CHristain and inventign Rationalisaitosn ebcause I cant hndle the truth.

    Also, by sayign the Faithful are usually disbonest you prevent real dialouge. SOmehow, Atheists are, by implicaiton, Honest I take it? Well, no they arne't. Dan Barker routinely lies to his audience, for exampel when he pretends that no oen ever relaly cares abotu a Fetus, or when he claism RTimothy McVeigh shoudl be labled a CHristian Terrorist. Acharya S is renown for her deceptions, and Bertrand Russel was flagrantly intellectulaly dishonest. (Read his Biography by Ray Monk)

    Even Ricbard Dawkisn is known to manipulate, distort, and utright lie on ocassion.

    So lets not pretend Ahtissm has a moral high road.

    Its also not relaly helpful to accuse "Thje faithful", and in this case me, of beign decietful when all I am sayign is that you shoudl take all of her writtings in total, to get a better picute of her, rather htan just a few isolated quotes taken form her journals or leters when she was at a lwo poitn in her life.

    Is ist so dishoenst to suggest that peopel ar emore complicated than that?

  30. Howdy once again Zarove and Feeno.

    What the???,oh heck my posts no longer than yours is it?.And should i be kicking you in the shins for your bloody hopeless spelling?.

    Well you think what you wish Zarove but i personally don`t consider the percentage of abusive Catholic Priests is at all acceptable.Specially when these statistics only tell us about abuse that`s been found out,and going by the reluctance of these many folk of faith in wanting to admit it all happened.I some how doubt the actual figures will ever be totally known.

    I suppose i`ll have to take your word for it that you honestly do care about such matters Zarove,but in trying to do that i`ll have to also try to understand some reason why you might have seemed to suggest the percentage was supposedly some how acceptable.

    Maybe you could personally suggest this to somebody that`s actually been abused and been fighting the priest in question for many many years along with many others also in the same church to finally come clean!be honest and simply admit it.Yeah people abuse people in all walks of life,but seldom do we see whole groups of people specially supposedly having the godly loving nature from reading the bible etc.All together dragging the chain as long as possible in hoping somehow this doesnt get heard about to much and become a embarrassment.See what their reaction is Zarove !.

    Zarove with regards to MT i don`t have the time right now to go specially read up everything i can find on her.And to be honest its not that important to me either,MT is fine by me no matter what anyway really.

    So i will just read what i get shown by people from time to time.But tell me you talk about things being sensationalized etc,what part are we talking about? is it the ten years she is supposed to have not felt any presence of god?.Because i`d be quite interested to see good evidence that ten years was not actually the case.Because ten years of not seeing any presence of any god my friend is rather long and rather strange to expect coming from somebody such as MT.Hell a couple of weeks or months of doubt maybe is fine,but MT not feeling anything for ten years?? well i suggest that evidence speaks mega for itself.You try suggesting doubting ones worldview as some sort of excuse,but hold on a minute! aint we talking about some supposed (real personal relationship) that supposedly MOTHER TERESA`S had here at some stage of her life?.Hell m8 im no smart cookie but the moment i personally met my mother i can tell you ive never ever had any doubt about her existence AT ALL !!.Is this supposed personal relationship many Christians go on and on about honestly having, not really as honest as they try to make out it is after all???.

  31. See you can quote who ever you wish had such n such doubts etc etc,but im not really looking at it from that angle.Because it seems to me that if i ever really had such a honestly undeniable relationship with any god like i would with my parents for instance,i really cant see what reason id ever have to become doubtful unless i was finally being honest and admitting id never really actually had one.Which is why im a athiest/agnostic at the moment because to be quite honest ive absolutely never ever experienced any real relationship with any god at all.However i have been in a situation as well like many others where i once tried for many years to fool myself that i had.

    Sure many different folks might be doubtful and maybe wondering/fearing they might have missed something.IE thought maybe there is some god and ive just damm missed having this personal relationship with him for some reason etc.But to me anyway there is a big difference between wondering if you might have some how missed out on this personal relationship and somebody who once lied about having some personal relationship with some god only to later admit you really didnt and some how now later have become doubtful.

    Regarding moral high roads please yourself Zarove,no skin off my nose at all what you think.But no i stand by what ive stated already that is i personally think very many faith believers ive met or talked to are really quite dishonest unthoughtful and even are often uncaring.Notice i havent said all of them!.

    Feeno whats up and hows all the family?.Hope all`s good !

    Hey ref whats the story is it only christians that are allowed to write long replies with mega spelling mistakes on this blog? :)

  32. W'dup big G
    Yes, even Atheists/Agnostics can leave long comments, however unless you are dyslexic like my dude ZAROVE your spelling will be graded and count for 25% of your grade.

    I believe I once read over at DC that ZAROVE said that he ain't got all day to set you guys strait, and spell check just makes it worse?

    So upon further review, there will be no "shin kicking".

    Hopefully ZAROVE will be back by and answer your questions? I will take my own shots, however I will keep mine brief. (I hope.)

    About MT:
    Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments". I think she did that better than anyone I ever heard of, 'til her last breath?

    I am old enough that when I was in School we still had Nuns and Priests teaching us. (I went to Catholic Schools.) For whatever reason all the Nuns I knew we very wonderful Christians who truly wanted the best for me, especially spiritually speaking. I never met a bad Nun?(I've met bad ass nuns, but not bad ones.)(see my testimony) And my freshman year in
    H.S. I met a priest who was a horrible, disgusting, evil, calculating SOB. (Lord, be
    with him and forgive me.) And he should be in
    jail. But that was the exception to the rule so to speak. I also met Fr. Hammerle, our principle my freshman year who was a great man of God and was a blessing to all who came into contact with him. The "sweeping under the rug" part is another problem, and most Catholics were extremely upset about this. So much so that the attendance and finances dropped off quite a bit. But hopefully they will rebound from this and get rid of any and all them godless freaks, and continue their outreach efforts.

    So, what have you been up to lately. I notice that you'll be away from DC for awhile, but when you come back, you come back with a vengeance. Although we seldom agree with one another, I always enjoy reading your comments. The topic of "evil" sure lit up the comment box. That Pedro guy is smart.(college guy) He gave me some props, cool. So vote for Pedro. He will make all your wildest dreams come true. (I'm sure he has only heard that about 1,000 times.

    My peeps are well. hope all is good with your fam as well. Later holmes, feeno

  33. I think Feeno got it right for me.

    I never said the percentage was acceptable, and this is just as much a misunderstandign as me sayign its OK to molest CHildren int he name of the Lord.

    Hwever, Im saying that we can't judge the whole Catholic Church as promoting Pedophilia or protecting Pedophiles simply based on what 4% of h epopulation of Prietss where liabkle for. (With only abotu 2% invovled in molestaiton and 2% in the coverups.)

    In fact, part of my point is that Sexual Molestation of Children occur sin compleltey secular institutons much mroe frequently, and yet we do't attakc them or sterotype them as Pedophiles one and all.

    An example is that a larger percentage of School Teachers, smehtign liek 5%, have been cauht sexually abusing underaged boys or girls.

    I dont in anyw ay think its acceptable, btu I also don thtink it'd be right to think of all School Teachers as Sexual deviants who get it on with underaged students of theirs.

    Nor do we see this as a sterotype for schoolteachers.

    Despite the fact that far more schoolteachers are actulaly caust in this sort of thing, school teachers are still reputable members of our society.

    Yet somehow a Catholic Prists is always goign to get the seye of suspicion in case he's a Pedophile? We shodul steotype alL Cahtolci Proets as Pedophalic?

    I hope you see the problkem now.

    The problem is, you are Charecterising the whole Cahtolic Chruhc as Pedophalic base don the actions of a few, because its an easy pitshot to take and helps justify your critissm of Catholisism and by extension all of CHristendom.

    You'd never dream of applyign the same standards to othe rproffession, such as school teachers.

    So why shoudl we sterptyep Cahtolcis based soley on this scandal?

    Incdedentlaly, as to Mother Teresa's life, she didn psend a ten year block not beoeivjgn in Gods existance, did she? She just didnt feel him in the same sense she did at earlier tiems in he rlife. This isnt the ame thign as all as beign an Ahtiest for ten years.

    I see no evidence that she stopped beleivign God existed, only that she felt abandoend by God and aloen in thw world. thats harldy the ame hting.

    Of ocuse ther are stray comments like "IF ther is a god", but thats just one or two comments, NOT how she thoguth continually over the coruse of a decade.
    Peopel are ocmpelxe crestures, you shoudlnt asusme a full mentlaity basd don aone or two line sin a diary.

  34. ZAROVE

    Have you tried to get on at DC since you were "banned"? You are a breath of fresh air over there. Hopefully you'll be reinstated. Don't forget his "no more comment" policy didn't last to long. Also did he (John) say he was gonna delete all your other, older posts?

    I like his blog, but that seems a bit petty. I'll be stopping by your blog to check in, if I don't see you over at DC.

    Peace and hair grease, feeno

  35. Zarove i happen to agree with you that all catholic priests shouldnt be stereotyped.

    With regards to MT however i still cant see very good reason why she might ever have suggested such things as "if there is a god",if she had actually (ever) really seen any real truthful honest evidence of one already once or twice etc before.This type of suggestion points to there not really ever having been much of a "personal relationship" anyway.Because how many numbers of honest "personal relationships" does one really need even with gods,to become forever sure of real unquestionable evidence of their undeniable existence ?.

    If i have (a) personal relationship with feeno for instance, how likely am i ever to later be questioning it ?.Not likely honestly really is it!,specially having had such a personal relationship !.

    No Zarove i cant agree with you that this was just a matter of a mere few moments of MT`s life hardships etc, shaping things here.

    I think if somebody like the lovable honest (MT) had really ever honestly experienced the actual presence of any god,i have real doubts that even in any hard times she would likely ever have had any need to question his being again little own have any reason to feel totally abandoned at all.

    In the least i suggest MT`s honesty here displays how weak this supposed "personal relationship with god" that so many Christians claim to have,really might be.Oh yes im quite sure many faithful folk do allow themselves to get caught up amongst much hype where they can talk themselves into believing that they too! have had this "personal relationship"etc,but still the same happens with those believing in alien abductions etc as well.

    Only a stray comment, it might very well be Zarove.But still i think its a very honest and extremely telling one also,specially coming from somebody like MT

    But thats just my personal take on what i think of the matter! anyway .

    Feeno my friend i can promise you my return to DC is not got anything much to do with any vengeance :(

    I have absolutely no hope of any vengeance or even justice for that matter to be served for how ive been badly treated by the faithful in my past.Only a hope ! that some day other peoples lives wont continue to be gambled with by faithful folks using some “Pascal's type Wager" by gambling with ancient beliefs that without real good evidence for proof could very well be wrongfully messing with many peoples lives in many ways.

    Thats all !.

    If real proof of any gods existence is really actually available to be found then thats fine,but if its only about myths and lies etc then its not really at all! is it Feeno?

    Hell i know Christians have many beliefs they read all about! but then sometimes dont really actually follow.But still surely one thing Christians even are supposed to like too, is finding out knowledge of the actual truth!about things right??

    Or would these faithful folk simply just feel much more comfortable if disbelievers simply all were just completely quiet about their reason/s for disbelief ,and maybe be much more happier if they were not having to go feeling any need to go trying to answer any questions?.

    Hell if you lot are really honestly onto the real truth here,surely questions wont really be fazing you that much!...Hell no ! one would expect faithful folks to be asking for more questions to be made!.

    Instead of using the old tried and trusted escape routes of asking non believers why they might ever be able to see any good reason to go trying to debunk what they dont personally believe.

  36. G
    W'dup bro. Maybe I shouldn't have said vengeance, I just meant you wrote with zeal and or passion. And believe me G, I can't imagine you ever saying anything that would offend me. Your a good guy that just seems to think different than I do. Unfortunately it's about what I would consider the most important thing ever. And I enjoy hearing from "your side" that's why I like John's site so much. So if you got some tough questions, bring 'em on. If I can't answer them I'll be honest and just tell you I don't know? But I'm happy to see when you post here. And will always look forward to your comments. later holmes, feeno

  37. Feeno,

    I've recently "deconverted" but still attend the church I had attended before. My wife gets a lot out of it and I don't mind supporting her. I find the people pretty likeable and the message to be harmful (albeit illogical and sometimes downright silly). I chose to become an atheist because it lacks internal consistency. An illustration of this is found in something you posted in your blog. I don't understand how you can enjoy MMA and be a Christian and, it is this type of cultural inconsistency multiplied many times over that inspired me to consider Christianity nothing more than a ritualistic hook which allowed folks to hang together. Now, I don't think there is anything wrong with MMA or your enjoyment of it but, it seems inconsistent with a religion that holds as one of its memorable teachings, "turn the other cheek." When this type of cultural blindness becomes magnified in defining "traditional" values at the expense of equality under the law I find it an uncomfortable premise.

  38. I meant to say I find the message harmless. Sorry.

  39. Again, I should review what I write. I meant to say I chose to become an atheist because Christianity lacks internal consistency.

  40. Chuck
    Thanks for clicking over. I just responded to you over at DC, I don't think it went through, I'm good at that?

    First let me say that the fact you still go to church with/for your wife is pretty cool.

    Attitude and intent has a lot to do with our actions. Two guys fighting with malice is bad. Two guys fighting for sport is sport.

    There are inconsistencies in the Church because a lot of people in the Church are a lot like me, and we haven't been perfected yet. But I'm trying to do better than yesterday? I just don't see MMA as one of those inconsistencies.
    If someone hits someone out of spite, hatred or jealousy then we have a problem. Make any sense?

    I've just been called by my wife. I'll check back here tonight. Thanks again for the comment.

    Peace Out, feeno

  41. Feeno, I don't see your point. Two men beating each other senseless for entertainment and cash may not be de jure inconsistent with Christ's instruction but it sure as heck seems de facto. I appreciate your sincerity but do not share your outlook on religion or faith.

  42. feeno said..."G
    W'dup bro. Maybe I shouldn't have said vengeance, I just meant you wrote with zeal and or passion. And believe me G, I can't imagine you ever saying anything that would offend me. Your a good guy that just seems to think different than I do. Unfortunately it's about what I would consider the most important thing ever."

    Hi Feeno and family !.

    Well friend let me tell you when you have observed how religion can split and divide and cause so much heartbreak, and you personally along with so many others have lost all your family connections through being involved with it.Its kinda hard ! not to have some real zeal and passion in wanting to try doing something about it.

    Believe me there has been many dark moments when ive wished somebody had already done so in the past!, so this life given to us by my parents we also could have then enjoyed and cherished and past on all the good memories etc to our children also.

    But like you say unfortunately these faith beliefs are just so important to some folks!.

    I wonder Feeno can you really understand how i might personally sometimes quietly feel when some faithful fellow goes and questions such simple things as how i might ever be able to find some real good reasons for things in life without some god or how i might have any morals etc raa raa.

    Tell ya my friend to be honest it kinda cuts right to the bone that it seems its thought by some that family cannot really help give us any good reasons.Yet still im not so surprised as hell once i was without this suggested God to my own faith believing family i became worthless and no good reason to them also.

    Im not here to offend and neither is vengeance any good to me,nothing i or anyone can do can ever offer me a different life all over again!.

    So im that guy who also experienced the nastiness and for me the best i can now try to salvage from a sad scene is to do what i can to try to not let it continue on for to many others in future.

    Of course you and many other faithful folk will most likely try handing me the carrot of promise of some suggested afterlife.Im supposed to feel happy swapping the life i have actual real evidence of!,for some promise written in some old book by ancient men who tried to discern what life on earth is all about.

    I personally cant help feeling the only real evidence of any real wager being used here,is the faithful folk doing all the actual gambling.Unless even one of them is actually able to provide me with some real decent good evidence!.

    Its funny you know Feeno seems almost everything else bar "the" faith belief,even most faith believers would question and want real good evidence for before being accepted.Like is faith in doctors enough for faithful folk to always just accept new practices in medicine?.Or do they accept global warming only because somebody else tells them its happening?.Ive watched many question it,yet for some reason i think if some ancient man had wrote global warming was real in some bible suggesting it was divined information from some God etc! i doubt many faith would then question it to much.The (fear factor) cunningly factored into the mix of things by smart men of the authority of old ,would take care of that problem as much as possible.

    Now im picking you will likely come back and say to me G not all faith beliefs are the same,hell my one is a real doozy we have cakes and all sorts for free on sundays!.

    And i can promise you im no stingy person im gonna try my best to still be happy for you!,even though i know the facts are the abusive faith beliefs many of us sadly got tangled up in in very many cases once started out from the same fluffy nice beliefs such as yours.

  43. G
    I don't know your whole story, but it doesn't sound like it was a picnic for you. And because of the fact you've lost relationships with family members over religion and the division/hurt it has caused, I understand why you would speak out and even admire you for it. I only wish you would have taken out your "passion" on "religiousity" and not God.

    Also I know better than anyone that you don't need God to be morale or to enjoy life. I just think that all good happens to come from God. And What is life? It is a vapor, here for a little while than it vanishes. (James ?:?)

    I too would speak out against any and all faiths that teach that we should end relationships based on personal beliefs by using the Bible. When Jesus said he will cause division he meant just that, (division) not seperation.

    And as far as faithful folk being the ones that are "gambling" on losing out on stuff in this life, maybe, but I don't feel I'm missing out on anything. Life is not always easy, but I enjoy it very much. And what makes it even sweeter is the future I will have with Christ. My brother says it like this "all this, and heaven too."

    The problem in my opinion (and yours to a degree?) is with religious people who want to play God and try to force their opinion on everyone else, pretending it to be gospel.

    I appreciate your thoughts for my well being. But for what it's worth my girls were never forced to go to church, never been brow beat over theology or made to read their Bibles, they have on their own decided to follow Christ. (Sure I influenced them, but with us we wanted their decision to follow Christ to be real.) And all on their own they've done just that. I don't know what the future holds for them or me, but if they ever decide to debunk themselves from their faith, my love for them wont change. I would also hope they would stay a major part of my life.

    Speaking of my girls, Bekah my youngest ripped the cover off the softball yesterday, incuding a 200 ft. blast for a towering homerun. Then 3 hrs later played real well (although she only had 2 points) in a very competitive basketball game. They won the softball game and lost the basketball game.

    Later G, feeno

  44. Well Feeno im afraid i cant see how you separate god and religion seemidley with such ease!,specially when for very sure both are connected and even formed by this very same book the bible that supposedly tries to give you (all) some type of coherent and understandable manual for life for all that you all should be able to follow.

    If i may be quite honest and say something without wishing to be sounding of any maliceful intent at all! i`d personally think it is both a little ( unmeaningfully ) dishonest and unfair and specially unrealistic if you are seriously suggesting religion and all the faithful are not closely connected in any way.

    See the problem starts when people become so sure and totally (faithfully) convinced firstly that there is/must be a god and second that the faith book the bible that is being (attempted) to be used and followed by all has (actually honestly ) been given to some honest mere mortal on this earth.Whilst also even without needing any divine direction from absolutely any faith book to be able to soon figure through experience that very many humans are not so easily to be trusted if you have even only a small good wits about ya.

    I suggest it takes a power of faith Feeno!i think you know where my thoughts stand on the matter of being to faithfully trustful,and i wouldnt expect you to feel any pressure coming from me to be making any other decisions that what you feel you should be.And im only here because the very big problem is your decisions on this religious matter happens to effect most every other person as well in this world sooner or later in one way or another as well.

    To be honest you do worry me a little when you say such things as "but I don't feel I'm missing out on anything",i do realize once again its done unmeaningfully and without a real non caring bone in your body for sure!.Tell me if i dont feel like im not getting robbed and missing out on anything when some other poor buggers are being thieved from all the time,does that mean the trade of thieving could be quite ok also?.

    Just having trouble with this way of ok`ing matters is all.

  45. Feeno you are making the decision that i actually (am) attacking! any God, by using only one calculation! that being that god is infact factual (for sure) and that so is this faith book written by the hands of mere men to be factually positively to be containing any divine guidance from any real god.

    Beside how can i actually be taking it out on any god in any real sense?.Is he here before me telling me things personally himself that im just arrogantly refusing to accept and follow?.

    God are you there!!??? .Waiting..waiting..cant see him Feeno cant hear him at all either Feeno

    Tell me because you personally might happen to think some other belief might be very wrong somewhere,does that have to mean you simply are just wanting to go attacking that God?

    Feeno personally i think you are misjudging me and not really understanding my real reasons im here bothering to talk about these very serious and important matters at all

    I know you are not meaning to!,but the problem happens when mostly though being very faithful to your faith. You no longer can see any way to ever imagine or even believe that it could ever really be that i actually honestly might have any other important and very good reasons to be here debating at all.

    Later Fee

  46. 'Sup G-diddy

    You keep assuming I'm arguing with you. Your right, yes the Bible and faith and God are very much connected. But that is where the problem lies. "If" there is a God we wont be able to use the excuse that Christians are assholes and the Bible is jibberish as an excuse for not submitting our lives to Christ.

    I'm also not OK'ing matters of abuse, but where should we draw the line of abuse? Is dropping my kids off at Sunday School or church camp abuse? You might think that is "brainwashing or something? If you think about it, kids are at school, with their friends, at the mall, local swimming pools or with their sports teams a lot more than there at church or church related stuff. I grew up in a "Christian" home but that didn't stop me from breaking every commandment except maybe one. How do you explain someone who comes to Christ late in life who was never indoctrinated?

    Gandy, it's probably not that easy to get to know someone to well over the computer, (although Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks did) And maybe one day over a cold one we can say we know each other a little. In my opinion you are here to try to prevent others from having to put up with all the bull-shit you had to endure as a kid. That's why I said in my last comment that I admire and respect you. But I also think that your throwing the baby out with the bath water?

    Am I even close? I'll be looking forward to your response. Dueces, feeno

  47. Hi feeno

    Its not a war its not even a competition so im fine if you and i think different.No your daughters getting dropped off at church is none of my business really,im fine with it.

    My (opinion) is that unless real good evidence is found and its all actually proved,then it (is) actual abuse of one of the very worst most disgusting abhorrent levels of this world when people and even supposedly loving parents without good evidence and proof start with shit such as suggesting hell and ever lasting torment etc etc etc .

    For these people my hope is that soon someday in this world humanity will arise ! and group and vote and DEMAND !!!,that these children and peoples rights of humanity which we rightly ALL should be protected by.Have some value of life in our hearts and minds.And that these abusive bastards will be dragged kicking and screaming even if need be! into courts where they should rightly be made to pay very very dearly for such barbaric crimes.

    Why so tough you might ask.

    Well at least some low life doesnt really pretend that often that much, to be that what he is not.He might rob rape or kill you but you know where you stand.Its not often done with use of years of fear and torment etc as well.He doesnt try telling you he`s loving as well as while treating you like a worthless for nothing possession with which he thinks he has some right to just do as he please.


    You say"If" there is a God we wont be able to use the excuse that Christians are assholes and the Bible is jibberish as an excuse for not submitting our lives to Christ.

    Who says?.....Your priest? ....Your Christian mates? .....Heaps ! of Christians told ya so?....You! actually think so and actually have evidence and very good proof for these claims?.

    By the use of who`s judgment?

    The mere men who wrote these faith books?....By the power that was supposed to be divinely given to those who were supposed to be prophets the very same type of people we still see in religious circles today calling themselves fathers popes or priests etc ?....Oh so maybe not only do you have very great faith in the supposed truth of God you have just as much faith and trust in in ancient mere men who wrote faith books as well ????.

    You have noticed how false quite a large number of faithful religious folk can actually be SEEN to be today,yet you feel you have good reason to just go trusting ancient ones that wrote their own ministries calling them bibles?

    Your faith worries me a little Feeno.

    But thats ok....I still like you and very much still enjoy us keeping friendly.

    Peace bro !

  48. G
    Proof is a funny thing. Did you guys across the pond get into the whole OJ Simpson drama? One jury found him not guilty, and yet another one found him guilty, basically with the same evidence. It's not fair for me to suggest to you that you must believe the same as me, because of any evidence that seems credible to me. But for entertainment value only I will share what evidence I find for God.

    #1. Something inside of me felt there was a God? (Ecc 3:11) God has set eternity in the hearts of men.

    #2. I just can't look at myself and the world and think it just happened by chance. Rom. 1:20
    Something had to create all this.

    #3. The Bible: Has long outlasted any and all critics. I think historically it has been proven by independent non Christian writers and historians. I think it's prophecies have proven it, I think it's morale guidelines are good, I think it's geographical and historical accuracies have proven it. Every scientific discovery that comes down the pike is suppose to be the downfall of this book, and yet, so far, none has. BTW, I don't believe the Bible is a history book, or a science book. It is a book to reveal who God is. I like scientific discoveries, but for me personally I have a hard time believing I evolved over 400 million years ago by accident.

    #4. Jesus. I can't prove that he rose from the dead, but those who claim that there was no such figure are ignoring much evidence for speculative conspiracy theories that do nothing more than sell books or tickets to the movies.

    #5. The early church martyrs.

    #6. I believe we communicate with God through our minds. Plants and animals don't do that.

    #7. That whole good v. evil and morality argument. How do we know if something is good or bad?

    #8. The fact that the church is still here. The gates of Hell wont prevail against it.

    #9. How scoundrels and rascals turn their lives around because of Christ.

    #10. Because we truly can have a personal relationship with God. (That's part of #6.)?
    2nd Cor. 1:22 "... He put the spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come".

    OK, you may now rebuttal my claims, I can't in all intellectual honesty claim there is no proof for God. The one thing in your favor is I'm not very intellectual. This is only reasons why I believe. Some people thought OJ was guilty, others didn't?

    And thank you as well, I hope we can continue our discussions. I know I learn a lot plus I enjoy talking to you. Deuces Out, feeno

  49. Fee
    I`ll quickly make another post my friend, as you have seen i come and go.Its because out country where i stay most of the time there is no way for me to get online.So i post when im in town.

    I understand many of your reasons given and realize its mostly for you a faith thing and a feeling you have.Most points given much of which i think we have already chewed over.

    Ill just mention a couple of things.

    Yep i know the Oj case.Hey evidence and proof of Oj Simpson im sure i probably could find like photos,tape recordings,a birth certificate etc,and while he`s still in the land of the living some will still actually personally see him themselves.
    Your God some suggest supposedly had kinda this type of physical appearance with men once so we are led to believe huh?,what happened did he die? just cant be bothered anymore? is just now decided playing games is more fun ?.

    I know i know! he`s just God and does what ever he does right.Yet we live in a world where its often best not to have to much faith in things until we see good reason for things so naturally we then are naturally groomed by life to look for real evidence first.Faith in this world in many things is not the best thing to be using if we wish to keep safe and sound etc.

    Yet even with some supposed all knowing god knowing that this would be how we would actually need to often live in this world to survive,he changes the rules not giving anything much thats of evidence in the same way.Damming those that then might then feel its false,choosing evidence over faith.

    Sound right? ....Sound like logic and good common sense?.

    Maybe it didnt happen by chance we are not really sure yet....Should we just make a great leap to Gods because we dont yet understand how?

    Many many have and look at ALL the trouble its caused ....Good idea?

    I personally have as much belief in Jesus as i can believe there are still those that still call themselves prophets in this world today...Could be true....Did he rise from the dead? .....hmmm modern day prophets and those around them still claim many things today most of them being rubbish ...Why should i think it was likely any different back then.

    Did you need God to decide for you that i wasnt so evil Fee?...I didnt need any God to (DECIDE) to think you seemed ok....Hard to see such a simple thing could be? ....Well im not surprised my friend i once also lived with religious folk that drummed things into my head that were very untrue until i and many others really believed them ...Such as all others in this world not in our group are evil..Yep its easy than ya think ...quite subtle too...hell watched adds on TV lately and started thinking hell (i actually do) need one of those gadgets?

    Feeno some folks take up yoga or something meditating their mind on something to help stop themselves doing or being something else that wasnt so great....God once again?

    Hey by the way that sharing a cold beer idea was great! pity the distance between us is so far.Im not really a drinker though, but socially is good fun.

    Later Fee and take care.

  50. G
    As always you make good and valid points, and your right, between DC and here most of these topics have been hashed and rehashed. But it is still fun.

    So if your in the city, your'e working? and in the country is where you live? Anyways when your back in the city please look me up. Also we live in a small world, and it's getting smaller all the time, who knows, maybe one day we'll break bread together and wash it back with an ice cold bottle of brew. There is a "country" song out right now in the states that has a cool title,
    "God is great, beer is good and people are crazy". Yeah, I like that.

    Hope all is good with you and the fam.
    Later Holmes, feeno

  51. Hi Feeno my friend :)

    L.o.L !!....Full marks for using the old mind over matter approach anyway.But breaking bread would really mean very little to me nowadays,but hey if your friends are really friendly i can sure be really friendly to them also.

    Maybe some day i might be lucky enough to get to visit some other countries,that would be so cool.

    My personal life in matters of where i live and what i do etc is so complicated and just too hard to completely explain, that without me writing a book i doubt you would ever really be able to understand.

    Nice looking you up once again friend !

    Take care and wishing you and family and friends all the best!!


  52. G
    That be a cool book! I'm not trying to pry, only one question, would it be a comedy, drama, horror, action, suspense or xxx. (ha ha)

    I've been to a few places but my 21 yr old daughter has been to Mexico, Australia for about 2-3 weeks and spent another 20 days in Europe. She speaks Spanish, English and is learning

    I'll be looking for your comments over at DC.
    But hope you check back here too.

    Adios amigo, feen

  53. Hey Fee :)

    L.o.L what if i answered yes!,really some of all of what you listed above.Literally.

    Oh yeah yes i am laughing about it all right at the moment,but really only because crying etc aint gonna really help that much...L.o.L

    I ya go letting these things keep gettin to you to much, all the time.I know all too very well what the consequences can be,as many folks i once knew just could not handle it and took suicide as the only option they felt was left.

    And many folks i know suffer on with P.T.S.D and things,nightmares etc of such things such as being ripped out of their own parents homes at young ages, due to their parents supposedly being evil etc etc.And some being put into other faithful folks homes where they were then abused and ill treated.Some even then suffering sexual abuse,some even being blamed for the sexual abuse that took place.

    Feeno i could tell you about a whole lot of stuff i really could.But to tell you the honest truth in many ways it even seems kinda pointless.

    As i cant help thinking you will probably just still find it so hard to believe that it actually really happens so much as it does.And your thoughts will still be thinking these folk are simply just being evil,nothing in the book at all helps lead people these ways.

    Great! to hear your daughter has seen and enjoyed some of this large planet Feeno.It really is.

    I love kids and enjoy seeing and hearing that their lives are being enjoyed.

    Another thing with how abusive religious faith has effected things in my life,is sadly ive not been able to get so close to my kids as id have liked to.In fact sometimes some things happen that just cuts me up.

    Kids like big families and like to at least feel a little pride and know where they have come from etc etc etc.But i just cannot ever compete with the other dads,because i cannot offer them the family unit that helps supply these things in life.

    Dont know if you really understand what im saying here.Because though ive tried so often to explain to people who have normal family lives just what its like if you have not got it,i never seem to stop needing to try to explain things all over again and again and again.

    Anyway bro here`s hoping you have another great week !


  54. G
    That 4th paragraph you wrote was pretty intense. And it's hard to believe stuff like that happens.
    But we are hearing more and more stories like that all the time. I don't even like to think about how cruel people can be toward others.

    I'm such a wuss that I can't even enjoy watching a movie when their is abused or kidnapped children involved. Then to think that shit like that happens in real life, no wonder some people find themselves in a position they feel that suicide might be the only way out?

    I know you don't believe in God, or feel if their is a god, why he would let this stuff go on. But all I can say is that God's heart is breaking over all the "evil" that is going on.

    I know that is where we differ, but I feel we would feel the same about how to punish those who commit such atrocities, no matter what religious affiliation they hold.

    anyways if you ever want to talk about stuff you don't want public, feel free to e-mail me at

    dueces, feeno

  55. Hey Feeno,

    I am an outspoken atheist, but I don't hate Christians. I used to be one. I have family members who are. People I love who are believers. Friends. People I work with. People I train with.

    It does not bother me that someone wants to believe in Christ. What bothers me is when I am being picked on for not believing, or when Christians try to force me to believe in the same things they do.

    Live and let live, you know?

  56. Most "gun toters" are pretty cool like that. I got my conceal and carry abpout a year ago. But I've been packin' for years.

    When you say train with what do you mean?

    Late, feeno

  57. Oh, I'm really into martial arts training. That's what I mean by that.

    I think people have a right to self-defense. People should be able to protect themselves and their family. It's a basic human right. Good for you on your CCW. Every law-abiding citizen should get theirs.